Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

[altius]

"Grip height does not tell anything about quality of performing drill." Not true - which is why Petrov/Bubka used this drill from 6 steps - 3 lefts - to test the efficiency of the take off. I think you will find that in the HOLLY book! Everyone should use it in that way once they have mastered it.

If you make any of the mistakes you indicate you will not be able to grip as high. I am sure someone else has the time to explain why this is so, but I am not going to waste time on a topic as simple as this.

[kcvault]

1. Get stronger/faster (or get a smaller pole)
2. Improve your technique

The goal should be to try to move the grip higher while still landing in the pit! If you can move the grip up, then you've accomplished either #1 or #2.

#1 has a limit, #2 doesnt so why put all the emphasise on #1 doesnt it take more then a high grip, running fast, and jumping high to be a good pole vaulter. Why would development of tecknique not be your main focus. How is it possible to countinue to get better with out developing tecknique. I can hold 15-6 but when I do I can hardly jump 16-6 but when I hold 15ft I have jumped 17-8 I would have to say considering this my max grip height until tecknique improves is 15ft, but according to what your saying I must have better tecknique if I am holding 15-6 why then when holding this high do I jump so much lower? It should not be a high grip height or a low grip height but the right grip height that you can do things properly. You still have not learned how to do the drill therfor you should not raise your grip. On the other hand whan I looked at vault purples video he did the drill fairly will and he should begin raising his grip a little bit at a time, until he is holding as high as he can and still doing the drill right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SmbDCTTGw8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81rASVhFR4U&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci7T_8fS4VY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AQBew8FHFA

view these video carfully the only one with an innapropriate grip height is you. And though the third video is not great you are the only one that does the drill poorly. Why? Because you never learned how to do the drill properly with a low grip and they did.

[quote][powerplant42 wrote:
and yes, you could give me an immense problem in which I would be likely to make some sort of mistake...

If you put enough numbers in an addition problem, Einstein would make a mistake. It's just human nature. I'm speaking in extremes, just like "perfection" deals with extremes.
/quote]

If you are suggesting fundamentals are not an iportant part of the vault I would read B2B again. Fundamental are the basis for learning in all things.

---Kasey

[powerplant42]

#1 actually isn't as limited as #2 KC... I can keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger and faster and faster and faster until my muscles are so huge that I can't move, but there's a point where my take-off is either free or it isn't, there's a point where I'm either planting early and high or I'm not, there's a point where I'm staying behind the pole or I'm not, etc. I explain this very thoroughly in the "Athleticism vs. Technique" thread in this forum. Take a look!

Why would development of tecknique not be your main focus.

KC, if you read my typical response to "how should I lift?" on this board, you'd know that I'm basically a purist... If it's a high schooler (jumping under maybe 15' for a guy, maybe 12'6" for a girl), I say: "How should you lift? You shouldn't. Go do some pole runs." I am a firm believer in Bartonietz's analysis of strength/technical development!!!

can hold 15-6 but when I do I can hardly jump 16-6 but when I hold 15ft I have jumped 17-8 I would have to say considering this my max grip height until tecknique improves is 15ft, but according to what your saying I must have better tecknique if I am holding 15-6 why then when holding this high do I jump so much lower? It should not be a high grip height or a low grip height but the right grip height that you can do things properly. You still have not learned how to do the drill therfor you should not raise your grip.

This is a real vault. This is a different scenario... There are now other factors, like the swing, like time, like standard placement etc. The jagodin is very simple... and you are working on certain TRANSFERRABLE ELEMENTS to the real vault, not the vault itself (as a whole)! With the short run jagodin, the specifically targeted transferrable element is an upspringing take-off. Your grip height is a function of #1 and #2 (above). To move it up you have to improve one of those... With 99.9% of vaulters, it's going to be technique that I would recommend working on. And they can work on their technique by USING THIS DRILL!

Tell me, if I'm vaulting (for real) and I'm not vaulting well (like if I'm just starting out, maybe I've been training for a month) should I not vault at all? Of course I should vault! That's how you get better... You get COACHED on it and try to make improvements.

Same with the jagodin.

[kcvault]

You get COACHED on it and try to make improvements.

When doing a drill such as this that is made to improve your tecknique at take off and body position I would suggest doing it correctly to get better not just holding high.

---Kasey

[powerplant42]

KC, you have to read more closely... Come on now!

"Grip height does not tell anything about quality of performing drill." Not true - which is why Petrov/Bubka used this drill from 6 steps - 3 lefts - to test the efficiency of the take off. I think you will find that in the HOLLY book! Everyone should use it in that way once they have mastered it.

[kcvault]

Altius wrote:Everyone should use it in that way once they have mastered it.

I am glad you pointed that out. But still look at what he wrote, he said after you have mastered the drill. You have definately not mastered the drill so why would this apply to you? Would it not be more appropriate to know what you are doing, before raising your grip? How can you exspect to learn when your ability level does not allow you to because you are gripping to high. Like I said look at the videos again you are the only one with an innapropriate grip.


___Kasey

[powerplant42]

Again KC, you gotta read closer.

The critical value of sand pit vaulting is that it enables the athlete to develop a free take off much easier than if they use the box. You do not need the precise run required - even from six steps/sorry yanks three lefts - get it approximately right - barrel in, use and upspringing take off and drive the pole up and forward. The emphasis is definitely on jumping UP and "finishing the take off - because it is that emphasis that maximises the energy into the pole (always think of it as a stiff pole) AND also ensures that the take off leg in correctly positioned to initiate the whip swing in the second phase. (Yes I know that it is a continuous chain of energy input but it is easier for athletes and inexperienced coaches if they think of four phases of energy input) The important thing is to ensure that the grip is continually pushed up with an emphasis on driving the pole up and forward - the original examples all show athletes gripping too low to get real value from the drill! (***NOTE: This is in reference to the videos posted in the "Sand Vaulting" thread.***)The athlete should keep pushing the grip up until they almost stall - then they are about right - until the next session when they again try to push it up!

I'm not gonna keep doing this... we get nowhere if we don't retain information.

[kcvault]

the original examples all show athletes gripping too low to get real value from the drill!

I agree with everthing Altius is saying but there is one major difference in his examples, and your video. In his exaples they do the drill right which means that they are not going to get anymore value out of the drill until they move there grip up since they are already doing the drill correctly.

The critical value of sand pit vaulting is that it enables the athlete to develop a free take off much easier than if they use the box. You do not need the precise run required - even from six steps/sorry yanks three lefts - get it approximately right - barrel in, use and upspringing take off and drive the pole up and forward. The emphasis is definitely on jumping UP and "finishing the take off - because it is that emphasis that maximises the energy into the pole (always think of it as a stiff pole) AND also ensures that the take off leg in correctly positioned to initiate the whip swing in the second phase. (Yes I know that it is a continuous chain of energy input but it is easier for athletes and inexperienced coaches if they think of four phases of energy input

Learn how to do this, show that you can do the drill properly, then push the drill up just like Altius said. Do everything he said not just the part of countnually pushing your grip up.

---Kasey

[powerplant42]

This:

I agree with everthing Altius is saying

does not resolve itself with this:

Like I said look at the videos again you are the only one with an innapropriate grip.

KC, I am making the same mistakes when holding low as I am when holding high. That means that mistakes are not happening because I'm gripping high, it means I'm making mistakes because I'm doing the drill (which is expected)!

but there is one major difference in his examples, and your video. In his exaples they do the drill right

I could point out mistakes to you... They're not big, but they're there nonetheless. This is like the large addition problem that Einstein would get wrong! You could put up a clip of Bubka doing the drill and I could STILL probably point out flaws, however minute they might be... Even in the BTB2 DVD, altius comments on how Isi "doesn't get it perfect every time"! So you need to form your own definition of what "mastery" means in terms of having athletes use this drill with an ASOP grip. Apparently, mine differs WILDLY from yours... But I don't think that's the case in reality. I think you're just having trouble articulating your thoughts. We need to have examples in videos... Maybe I'll make one just for this discussion (putting up repetitions in varying degrees of mastery) so that we can discuss THIS further in detail.

Let's build another scenario... I really want you to understand this concept... it is important for coaches and athletes alike!

We have an athlete who has been told all his career to take off under. He does it pretty well! We take him over to the sand pit immediately and begin working with sand jagodins. He is taking off under, but he is still rotating the pole quickly. Let's now say that we put his grip at ASOP... He's still taking under, but now the pole is moving slowly. We should stay at ASOP. We should NOT go back down with grip... Rather, as he continually tries to keep pushing his grip up, he will have to (or his coach will have to) train himself to improve his technique (namely, TAKING OFF FREELY!). This comes with practice... I suggest you read through the USOC (I think) article linked to in the "Athleticism vs. Technique" thread. It explains this process quite well: each repetition is an improvement (in general) on the last one. Over time, better habits are formed which translate into better technique.

But what would happen if we stayed at the low grip with this athlete?

An interesting question... Well, you WOULD fix the free take-off issue of course, but at what cost?

TIME. You wasted time fixing one element when you could have been spending time fixing one element and improving others at the same time (particularly jumping UP at take-off).

[somechick]

I have followed this and your other thread closely. I may be new to the site but I am not new to the sport, so here goes.

I am no expert. I can get better and at this point I will do anything it takes to put myself in a position to succeed. I have trained with, met and know personally a handful of elite pole vaulters and coaches. I have been able to spend the time with them, discuss technique, listen to their ideas and LEARN. I still however, don't have the gall to be as arrogant as you portray yourself as being through your writing.

This site is an excellent resource. It is a good place for different levels of vaulters to mingle and learn. Use it as such. You post and it seems to me you are only looking for a pat on the back instead of the constructive criticism you claim to seek. You brush off the opinions of Kirk, vaultpurple, pogostick, AVCcoach, and many others who have continually tried to help mold your current form into something worthwhile. They have more experience and success in the sport as coaches and athletes than you do. UTILIZE THIS RESOURCE. Stop being so arrogant. How high have you jumped? 11'6". How high could you jump? Who knows. I do know you will never be a sucess in the vaulting world if you refuse to open your mind and step away from your stubborn mindset. It's hard enough to be sucessful vaulting, you don't need to stunt yourself further.

Quit wasting your time asking for feedback when you are really looking for a Kudos. You will not get it here. This site is for learning and progressing. You are doing things wrong and you will hear about it. If you want to get better then use the feedback instead of assuming that all of these people who are highly educated on the subject are beneath you. Looking at video and reading books does not make you an expert. These people have applied these techniques and know what to expect from them. Realize their value instead of trying to reinforce your own.

I know you will read this as an attack. Don't. Read through it a few times and think it over. I am really hoping you will take this into account and rethink your approach. Good luck with your training and I hope you can succeed.

[kcvault]

Over time, better habits are formed which translate into better technique.

But what would happen if we stayed at the low grip with this athlete?

All I really ask is this that you have a free take off, and you are able to keep your hips and trail leg back with out them slaming into the pole. Because of the angle when you have a high grip you will never learn to do this properly unless you already know how. Which is easy to learn with a low grip and then apply to a high grip. If you can do those things right go ahead and raise your grip. The fact that you refuse to learn it with a low grip first is probably the reason your tecknique looks exactly the same now as it did 1 year ago. Possible a improvment on grip height but zero improvment on tecknique. I gaurantee with a proper coach and a proper focus you could learn how to do these things properly in as little as a day. And after that you will be able to countinue to raise your grip up working on the small details.

---Kasey

[powerplant42]

somechick: Well if I'm misreading your post as an attack, how do you know that you aren't misinterpreting the tone in my posts? I don't think that's very fair. But hey, it's all good!

I am sorry that I come across as arrogant to you, but I must tell you that all I am doing is taking a stance and defending it which takes a certain attitude that I could imagine might come across as arrogance... If something confuses me in someone's posts, I point it out and ask for clarification. If someone is just plain wrong, I make sure that that's made clear so that it won't be used as an antecedent in further discussion. Rarely if ever is it supposed to be spiteful or petty... I am a philosopher, NOT a jerk. Constantly questioning and poking holes in arguments is what we should be doing as we continually try to enlighten one another to the truth. I am a GNOSTIC person, especially with the vault. I am always open to new ideas and points of view, including grip during sand jagodins. I must say, a day or two ago I was beginning to consider the possibility that I was wrong... However, I concluded that I couldn't be because my view was grounded in the sciences of biomechanics and kinesthetic pedagogy. I have now reconvinced myself, and in the process I have actually learned a lot.

If you think I "brush off" people's advice and thoughts, well, sorry, that's just not true. I think you've overstepped your boundaries with that one. Almost everything that I've come to understand about the vault I learned from individuals on this board, especially altius and KB. In this particular instance, however, it would take quite a bit to convince me that I'm incorrect. I've thought this through SO thoroughly that I just can't see any way that my side of the argument is not the truth. If something new comes up for the other side, I WILL reconsider and possibly switch! I want to learn! If you want to talk about something like chest drive, I would be highly susceptible to go either way: "drive the chest," "don't drive the chest," (agapit argues that chest drive is a passive phase, but many others have good points about its benefits) because the science is much more difficult than it is in the case of "higher grip" or "lower grip" in this drill.

And as for the pats on the back? Yeah, they're nice, but enlightening people to the truth is much more rewarding. THAT'S why I do what I do... for NO other reason.

KC: I think you should talk to altius about this. The athletes in his DVD hit their thigh on the pole, and he even made it known on here that it's good practice. Here's the quote:

One cue is to ask the vaulter to catch the pole on the trailing thigh as they move to maximum height