Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

[powerplant42]

This is a discussion (hopefully it will not decline in status to an online shouting match this time) stemming from this thread: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... 39&t=18721

I am positting the following argument: the grip during short run stiff pole jagodins for a novice - elite vaulter should be raised progressively during a session until a grip height is attained where the vaulter rotates the pole to just past vertical. The athlete should then stay at this grip height until they can push it up even farther or can no longer rotate it just past vertical due to fatigue.

Definitions of questionable terms:

"Short run" - 4 lefts - 0 lefts

"Jagodin" - a run, a jump, then a period of staying squarely behind the pole with the core (riding the pole over into the pit)

"Novice - elite" - any vaulter that has had upward of 6 hours training specifically for the vault with an intelligent coach

"Progressively" - over the course of 5 - 6 repetitions

"Just past vertical" - the pole very nearly stalls out

My reasoning:

1. Drills are a means to an end, not ends in and of themselves. The athlete should not focus on mastering a given drill so much as mastering the most transferrable elements the given drill through its use. To master a simple drill like a sand jagodin would mean that the athlete masters each element sequentially. With this mindset, the run MUST be mastered completely on its own, the plant must be mastered completely on its own (for the 3 and 4 step jagodins) and then incorporated into the run, the take-off must be mastered completely on its own then incorporated into the plant and then into the plant with the run, and staying behind the pole must be mastered completely on its own then incorporated into the take-off, then into the take-off with a plant, then into the take-off with the plant AND the run: we have finally reached the jagodin! This process is not feasible. Mastering a drill (perfecting absolutely every component) takes years. I would estimate that building a run as good as Bubka's or Isinbayeva's would take 4 years alone... and one could even argue that neither of them has "mastered" the run (semantics, but just a thought). So, I conclude that telling an athlete that they need to master the sand jagodin before raising their grip is not practical.

2. The value of the short run jagodin with a stiff pole is that it makes the athlete use vertical force (take-off power) to move the pole rather than horizontal force (run-way speed). If an athlete were to be gripping where the pole rolls over very quickly, (as shown in the videos in the "Sand Vaulting" thread,) he would not feel naturally compelled to create as large a vertical impulse as he would if his grip were higher. So shouldn't the athlete, after becoming comfortable with the drill during a particular session, raise his grip up to the highest point where the pole almost stalls out!? Of course. So, I conclude that an athlete training with a low grip with which the pole rotates very quickly does not teach one of the targeted (arguably the MOST targeted) transferrable elements (an upspringing take-off) as efficiently or as naturally as an athlete using a higher grip and is therefore not as pedagogically sound as a repetition of the drill as one with the athlete having a higher grip.

3. This drill is specifically lined out as per the above criteria in BTB2 (both book and DVD). Altius has even spelled it out for everyone online here... I'll put this up again:

The critical value of sand pit vaulting is that it enables the athlete to develop a free take off much easier than if they use the box. You do not need the precise run required - even from six steps/sorry yanks three lefts - get it approximately right - barrel in, use and upspringing take off and drive the pole up and forward. The emphasis is definitely on jumping UP and "finishing the take off - because it is that emphasis that maximises the energy into the pole (always think of it as a stiff pole) AND also ensures that the take off leg in correctly positioned to initiate the whip swing in the second phase. (Yes I know that it is a continuous chain of energy input but it is easier for athletes and inexperienced coaches if they think of four phases of energy input) The important thing is to ensure that the grip is continually pushed up with an emphasis on driving the pole up and forward - the original examples all show athletes gripping too low to get real value from the drill! (***NOTE: This is in reference to the videos posted in the "Sand Vaulting" thread.***)The athlete should keep pushing the grip up until they almost stall - then they are about right - until the next session when they again try to push it up!

I've also seen altius coach this drill this way (with novices) in person on multiple occasions. I conclude that this drill is taught according to the positted argument by arguably the best youth pole vault coach ever to walk the face of the Earth.

I look forward to some good discussion on this. I also look forward (hopefully) to being rid of all this argumentation in my training blog thread.

Here's hoping for the best!

[kcvault]

Lets first just make this simple if you belive pp should learn how to do the drill correctly then progressivly raise his grip up just put a thumbs up, or put it at the end of your comment if you think the grip should be pushed up as far as possible as long as the pole gets past verticle put a smiley face.



---Kasey

[powerplant42]

Could you please define "correctly" for us?

And please don't make this about me... It really isn't. It's about all vaulters.

(By the way, I do recommend starting out a session with a low grip height to make sure you've got a feel for everything before you move it up too much!)

Thanks!

[joebro391]

I really like this post. I always felt that the many Jagodins that I would do/week were one of the most beneficial drill I did (back in high school). I haven't been doing them so much lately (like 7/week), and surprisingly {insert sarcasm here}, the grip that i can grip from a 3-left approach (and surely my grip on longer runs), has decreased dramatically (12' from 3 with a straight pole, to 11'3). I'm trying to convince my coach that these should become a much larger focus, with much more time dedicated to them.

does anyone feel what is a good frequency to train these?? I honestly don't remember what i used to do (i think something like 10 into a vault pit, twice a week, and perhaps 20 into a sand-pit, twice a week). Any ideas on that?? -6P

[kcvault]

Could you please define "correctly" for us?

And please don't make this about me... It really isn't. It's about all vaulters.

(By the way, I do recommend starting out a session with a low grip height to make sure you've got a feel for everything before you move it up too much!)

Thanks!

To me corectly means doing the drill with a free take off, in the backwards c position. The hands begin to move up at the right time and finish as high as possible, and the hips and trail leg stay back with out needing to slam into the pole. Not nesairly perfect but these things need to be done correctly, we can work on the small details after that.

I should have said the drill not singled you out.

I always recommend starting out a session with a low grip height to make sure you've got a feel for everything before you move it up too much!) even when perfected, even if just for a jump or two.

what I like about the drill is you can do it from full speed or a jog and still get alot out of it. Since the most important part of your jump is your take off it is nice to have a drill you can do a hundred times in day pretty much anywhere. Allowing you to develop a free take off and a good take off position very quickly.

---Kasey

[powerplant42]

6P: I would say more like 40-50 in the sand one day, a day of something else (if it's real vaulting then warm up with 10-20 of these on the pit), then 40-50 in the real pit the day after that.

10 will not get you too far.

KC: Let's talk about this...

To me corectly means doing the drill with a free take off, in the backwards c position. The hands begin to move up at the right time and finish as high as possible, and the hips and trail leg stay back with out needing to slam into the pole. Not nesairly perfect but these things need to be done correctly, we can work on the small details after that.

This drill is supposed to teach you how to take off as a whole, not just the 'free' component. So why would you not, after having explained the drill to an athlete and having them try it with a lowerish grip, raise the grip up so that they are getting the benefit of training themselves to take off free (or even better a pre-jump) habitually AND to jump UP? Once the pole is moving quickly, you've got to raise the grip up in order to get real benefit out of the drill. It's sort of like math: If I'm taking a class on differential equations (and am appropriately placed there), why would the teacher quiz me on addition? Sure, all of math is based off of addition... and yes, you could give me an immense problem in which I would be likely to make some sort of mistake... but why bother giving a quiz on addition? I really don't need to try that hard to get the problems correct (if time is not an issue).

Math as a whole is the drill. The level of class that I'm placed in is my physical capability. The level of quiz that is given to me is my grip height. The incorrect answering of the big question is being slightly imperfect with the basics. Make sense?

Now, using my video as an example of a particular situation that arises frequently...

The athlete might be having a specific difficulty while gripping low. Let's make it that he's got a really weak drive-knee... However, when the grip is raised to the almost-stalling-out point, the drive-knee is STILL WEAK. What to do?

Well, keep the grip raised of course. The drive-knee problem is absolutely not contingent upon one particular grip height (as is evidenced by incorrect execution at two separate grip heights), it is contingent upon the execution of the drill itself... That is, the flaw is a function of simply DOING the drill, NOT a function of GRIP.

Let's imagine another scenario... The athlete only has a weak drive-knee when the grip is HIGH (near the almost-stalling-out point). The drive-knee is fine when the grip is low (about a foot below the ASOP). What to do?

Well, keep the grip raised of course. If the athlete has trained himself to do the drill with a good drive-knee when the grip is low, then he is capable of doing the drill with a good drive-knee when the grip is high... he just hasn't actualized it yet. Once he does it correctly with a high grip he should be fine (kinesthetically, not necessarily psychologically... that's a different story) with each subsequent upward movement of grip with regard to the drive-knee, because the feeling of the pole moving at every speed that it does throughout the course of the drill has already been experienced and conquered by a correctly positioned/moving drive-knee (assuming that he learned the basic premises of the drill with a low grip/quick pole).

Am I making sense?

[kcvault]

If I'm taking a class on differential equations (and am appropriately placed there), why would the teacher quiz me on addition? Sure, all of math is based off of addition... and yes, you could give me an immense problem in which I would be likely to make some sort of mistake... but why bother giving a quiz on addition? I really don't need to try that hard to get the problems correct (if time is not an issue).

Math as a whole is the drill. The level of class that I'm placed in is my physical capability. The level of quiz that is given to me is my grip height. The incorrect answering of the big question is being slightly imperfect with the basics. Make sense?

No it does not make since because you can't do the addition yet and your trying to figure out quadratic formulas, get the basics down or your going to fail the test. With out the basics you have no chance in figuring out the more conplex math. I am not aruing that the drill should have a high grip, but only if you can do the basics of the drill first after and only after you understand the basics can you get the benifit of a high grip. Dont try to make it conplex it is simple, its the same reason you learn to plant, then to swing, then to invert, then the turn and fly away because each one builds on the other.

---Kasey

[VaultPurple]

Do it at whatever grip you can do it correctly like KC said. And you know what correctly is (pretty much like the guy in the video). If you are moving the pole in really really fast and you land in the center of the sand/pit without being ripped off the ground, then move the grip up slightly. If after moving grip up you can not do the drill properly, then move it back down because it is more beneficial to do it with a slightly lower grip and do it right than to do it incorrectly with a higher grip.

If one day you want to see how high you can grip and still move the pole to vertical that is great, Alan even encouraged this at his camp. In this your technique will not look as good, but this is a 'Test" to measure progression, and not something you should do regularly as a drill because it will cause bad habits. For example if you can comfortably grip 11' doing a jagodin with proper form, but you can move a 12' grip to vertical with a little less form, then gripping 11' is your jagodin and is beneficial to your vaulting, and gripping 12' is not a jagodin but rather a test of your progression.

[KirkB]

Am I making sense?

I don't think so. Here's why ...

Twice, you say ...

... Well, keep the grip raised of course.

Why "of course?"

Two points ...

1. If the drill is being done incorrectly ... and you're not sure why ... you need to "get back to basics" and retrace your steps until it IS done correctly. This means ... among other things ... lower your grip and do the SIMPLEST form of it. Then build back up to a more complex version, raising your grip as you go ... SLOWLY. I don't mean to oversimplify this, becuz if you're coaching yourself, it's not that easy to spot a technical flaw at the exact time that the flaw occurs.

2. If the drill is being done incorrectly ... and you don't realize it ... you're just going to pick up bad habits by doing more reps. You told 6P to increase his reps ... which is OK, as long as they're HIGH QUALITY reps. It's better to do 10 GOOD reps than 50 BAD reps. The challenge, of course, is to realize whether the reps are good or bad in the midst of doing them!

Kirk

[Pogo Stick]

3. This drill is specifically lined out as per the above criteria in BTB2 (both book and DVD). Altius has even spelled it out for everyone online here... I'll put this up again:

The critical value of sand pit vaulting is that it enables the athlete to develop a free take off much easier than if they use the box. You do not need the precise run required - even from six steps/sorry yanks three lefts - get it approximately right - barrel in, use and upspringing take off and drive the pole up and forward. The emphasis is definitely on jumping UP and "finishing the take off - because it is that emphasis that maximises the energy into the pole (always think of it as a stiff pole) AND also ensures that the take off leg in correctly positioned to initiate the whip swing in the second phase. (Yes I know that it is a continuous chain of energy input but it is easier for athletes and inexperienced coaches if they think of four phases of energy input) The important thing is to ensure that the grip is continually pushed up with an emphasis on driving the pole up and forward - the original examples all show athletes gripping too low to get real value from the drill! (***NOTE: This is in reference to the videos posted in the "Sand Vaulting" thread.***)The athlete should keep pushing the grip up until they almost stall - then they are about right - until the next session when they again try to push it up!

I've also seen altius coach this drill this way (with novices) in person on multiple occasions. I conclude that this drill is taught according to the positted argument by arguably the best youth pole vault coach ever to walk the face of the Earth.

I look forward to some good discussion on this. I also look forward (hopefully) to being rid of all this argumentation in my training blog thread.

Here's hoping for the best!

I don't want this discussion become like interpretation of holly books, but I cannot resist:

Using a six step run and a stiff pole, the vaulter gradually moves their grip up as they take off to drive the pole forward while staying 'long' behind it, without rocking back. Eventually they reach a point where they can only just drive the pole to the vertical and get on to the front of pad safely.

I think you are loosing important part of the picture. Grip height does not tell anything about quality of performing drill.
I would say that performing drill correctly is also objective and one of the prerequisites to move grip higher (regardless of definition of correct performing). An extreme example: you can have late plant, be under, not stay behind, pull with hands, etc. and at the same time go up with grip. If you are strong and fast enough, you can grip higher than someone who perform drill correctly.

[joebro391]

6P: I would say more like 40-50 in the sand one day, a day of something else (if it's real vaulting then warm up with 10-20 of these on the pit), then 40-50 in the real pit the day after that.

10 will not get you too far.

yea, when i would do 10 into the pit, i'd usually keep the number low cause it was a warm-up for full vaulting. fortunately, i worked it out with my coach that i can get into the field house with some poles, and i'll probably spend most of the day on pole runs (walking 3's, and jogging and full-run 3's and 5's), and in the sand pit on a stiff pole. -6P

[powerplant42]

No it does not make since because you can't do the addition yet and your trying to figure out quadratic formulas, get the basics down or your going to fail the test. With out the basics you have no chance in figuring out the more conplex math.

and yes, you could give me an immense problem in which I would be likely to make some sort of mistake...

If you put enough numbers in an addition problem, Einstein would make a mistake. It's just human nature. I'm speaking in extremes, just like "perfection" deals with extremes.

I am not aruing that the drill should have a high grip, but only if you can do the basics of the drill first after and only after you understand the basics can you get the benifit of a high grip.

(I'm guessing you meant "shouldn't".)

I believe you are not fully grasping the concept here:

If the athlete has trained himself to do the drill with a good drive-knee when the grip is low, then he is capable of doing the drill with a good drive-knee when the grip is high... he just hasn't actualized it yet. Once he does it correctly with a high grip he should be fine (kinesthetically, not necessarily psychologically... that's a different story) with each subsequent upward movement of grip with regard to the drive-knee, because the feeling of the pole moving at every speed that it does throughout the course of the drill has already been experienced and conquered by a correctly positioned/moving drive-knee (assuming that he learned the basic premises of the drill with a low grip/quick pole).

And how do you know that the athlete is not using runway speed to move the pole if his grip is low? I would guess you'd argue that by the same token how would you know if the athlete is jumping up if the grip is high (at ASOP)... Tricky to resolve, but it's possible!

Take all the runway speed away. All of it. 0 steps. Then compare the grip height with the athlete's previously demonstrated physical capabilities... Is it where it should be? Or should it be higher? If it should be significantly higher, then you know that the queue you give the athlete should be "JUMP UP!!!" with double extra emphasis.

Do it at whatever grip you can do it correctly like KC said. And you know what correctly is (pretty much like the guy in the video).

OK... That almost makes sense, but...

If you are moving the pole in really really fast and you land in the center of the sand/pit without being ripped off the ground, then move the grip up slightly. If after moving grip up you can not do the drill properly, then move it back down because it is more beneficial to do it with a slightly lower grip and do it right than to do it incorrectly with a higher grip.

Now I'm very confused.

If I'm doing the drill alright when gripping X and I'm "moving the pole in really really fast and [I] land in the center of the sand/pit" I should move the grip up slightly... I'm now gripping X + 1" and can't do the drill quite as well as before, but I'm still rotating the pole fairly quickly... You're saying that I should move the grip back down!?

That does not make sense to me.

If I'm learning how to sprint, and I can't run 100% correctly when going 100% speed, should I never run 100% speed ever? This whole argument is idealized, but let's just say that I can only run 50% speed with 100% correct form... Ignoring the strength and psychological components of training, should I never run more than 50% speed until race day? Nobody would say "yes".

What if I can run at 100% speed when practicing with 95% correctness? 75% correctness? 65%? 50%? At what point does it become detrimental to development?

Now we've reached an interesting question, which I think most of you are trying to answer without completely thinking it through. It doesn't make much sense to speak in an idealized situation anymore... We'll step away from the theoretical side of methodology and get to the practical side. KB, this should help address your thoughts on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SmbDCTTGw8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81rASVhFR4U&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci7T_8fS4VY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AQBew8FHFA (note: grip moves up and up for each step... see my blog thread for more info... you should be able to tell which are high and which are low...)

What would you do with each of these athletes (in terms of grip) and why? Let's assume that these repetitions are completely accurate representations of the athletes' performance in this drill.

I think you are loosing important part of the picture. Grip height does not tell anything about quality of performing drill.
I would say that performing drill correctly is also objective and one of the prerequisites to move grip higher (regardless of definition of correct performing). An extreme example: you can have late plant, be under, not stay behind, pull with hands, etc. and at the same time go up with grip. If you are strong and fast enough, you can grip higher than someone who perform drill correctly.

If you have reached ASOP, then you must do one of two things in order to move your grip higher:

1. Get stronger/faster (or get a smaller pole)
2. Improve your technique

The goal should be to try to move the grip higher while still landing in the pit! If you can move the grip up, then you've accomplished either #1 or #2.