The Stretch Whip Drills

[KirkB]

I absolutely agree with what you are saying. ...

And I now agree with everything you're saying! I didn't think you got it at first ... but I guess you did.

Kirk

[ADTF Academy]

For once an actual decently good conversation I am so proud of us all


A traditional Bubka is a strength drill unless you have one additional aid to help you. Something that stops your shoulders from moving behind your hands. When people do bubkas there hands are infront of the shoulders this is not realistic and does not match the vault. On a rope this also occurs and does not match the vault. They are strength drills and have aspects of the vault. I call them "this is what you do if your take off and initial swing fails" drill. I actually strap weight hanging from their hips to simulate the force it will take to get out of this position. Mark can do it with around 80+ pounds hanging from his hips while he lower his hips slightly below his back flat to the ground and still get upside down.

IF you watch the video of bubka swing you will see his shoulders are in front of his hands or parallel to them.

Bubka Swing

http://polevaulting.johnaltendorf.com/misc/bubkas.wmv

Watch any video of a bubka drill on a high bar or a swinging bubka on a high bar or rope the hands move out front of the shoulders. This is not correct and therefore even though they are great strength drills they do not match the vault if your model is to swing to inversion with no wasting movements. Shoulders moving behind hands is a wasted movement and although you don't tell the athlete to drive their hands forward they have to and do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn5LIiHmPlY.

This is relatively speaking spot on. Some things I would change but it better simulates the vault and feel of the vault the stretch through the chest and shoulders that occurs the hips whiping down and forward and the foot simply foloows than the upswing into inversion. This can never be matched on the high bar unless you run jump in the air and catch the bar than immediately swing. From a standing swing position you can never match what is seen in that video unless you have something that keeps your shoulders forward. If so I would like you to show me I have never see it occur. The hands will always lead on a high bar. On the rings you can get that nature stretch that will occur when you vault.

I did make this high bar once that had bars curved in so there was an opening only big enough for your head. The high bar was position x inches behind this frame which was padded of course. The more flexible the athlete the further back the high bar was position to the hands. Now this drill using a high bar matched the true position of the body. However, over time I found the stress it put on the shoulders, Lats and hands were not worth it so I went to rings as well and kept hanging bubkas as a strength drill only.

We actually do sitting bubkas now on a platform with the bar on a squat rake and the athlete on a cart and as they move to inversion the bar is droped on a lower saftey bar just before it his them to simulate the swing to inversion. We also add weight to drag to make the drill and action harder. Maybe if I am nice I will post that drill, but our training is not quite there yet so maybe in a couple weeks. We are still working on plant and takeoff and setting up the swing.


Side Note to Kirk if I could add one thing to your drill and for this young lady is her inverted C in the back of her swing is wat too big with the stomach relaxed as she is her lower back and butt will flare thus causing her hips to cock back. Yes from this position she can reach her leg back further but it will break/reduce the stretch in her stomach and make it almost non exsistent. With the abs tight and the lower back flat the stretch in her chest and stomach will increase in size and cause the hips and foot to actually whip through faster. However, this will cause a tighter inverted C which sadly most people like to see the big inverted C position. I like fast swings over cheated and slow takeoffs. In the vault what she is doing now will and I bet cause her to have a pause at takeoff in her jump and thus a delay in her swing coming off the ground on smaller poles and bigger poles probably run away from her due to this delay. If the hips flare she will be late. Tight abs reduce the flaring of the hips and increase the stretch thus producing a more powerful whip. Based on that video she should be able to swing upside down with ease on any pole you put in her hands. Next will depend on her speed and reach height at takeoff to determine how high she can vault.

How old is this young lady? How high has she jumped? What is the biggest pole she has been on?

[KirkB]

I call them "this is what you do if your take off and initial swing fails" drill.

That's how I feel about Bubkas too. You need the strength there ... and you need to know what to do in the middle of a vault without much thinking ... but the actual action that you experience on the highbar isn't experienced on a GOOD Petrov vault. That's becuz just BEFORE you begin this action of the pole (Master's vid doesn't show this), your upswing has caused you to exert some centripetal forces against the pole ... thus the pole isn't in your way.

Side Note to Kirk if I could add one thing to your drill and for this young lady is her inverted C in the back of her swing is way too big ... With the abs tight and the lower back flat the stretch in her chest and stomach will increase in size and cause the hips and foot to actually whip through faster. However, this will cause a tighter inverted C which sadly most people like to see the big inverted C position. I like fast swings over cheated and slow takeoffs.

ADTFA, I agree with you. I like to show Amy's vid to vaulters that have no idea of the POWER of the DOWNSWING. She does it ... in a VERY exagerated way. Most mere mortals won't have the flexibility in their core ... or even the daringness ... to do this drill as EXTREMELY as Amy does it. But as an example of how it CAN be done, I think it's good. The interesting part of what you say (pardon my paraphrasing) is that it's not how BIG of a downswing you have ... it's how TIGHT your core is when you stretch into the inverted-C, and then how QUICKLY you initiate the downswing.

I'll add that you then need to ACCELERATE thru the downswing. This can be done thru swinging your trail leg FASTER than a natural swing ... using some muscles in your thighs and lower abdomen that you may not even know you have (or maybe you know you HAVE them, but you don't know how to USE them!) ... quadriceps, rectus femoris, tensor fascia lata, rectus abdominis, and external oblique.

These are all things that can be taught in the Stretch Whip Drill. The extreme stretch to the inverted-C position is only one aspect of this drill. Even Amy would not go this high in her elastic stretch on the pole. You should TRY to do it like Amy, but then (as ADTFA says - but I'm paraphrasing again) dial it back to something more like the "elastic stretch" of a real vault ... before your lack of an elastic stretch turns into the opposite extreme.

In the vault what she is doing now will [???] and I bet cause her to have a pause at takeoff in her jump and thus a delay in her swing coming off the ground ...

Yes, I'll bet you're right. I had this flaw myself ... I didn't know any better back then. It's hard to describe how to get a FULL stretch before you swing (Amy gets MORE than a full stretch), and then begin your swing IMMEDIATELY ... and I rarely see a vaulter do this properly ... but it can be done. I know it can be done, becuz I've personally experienced it. In their haste to swing, most vaulters begin the swing too early ... or (like you say re Amy), probably swing too late. The happy medium isn't just a compromise, it's an OPTIMIZE.

Kirk

[ADTF Academy]

Side Note to Kirk if I could add one thing to your drill and for this young lady is her inverted C in the back of her swing is way too big ... With the abs tight and the lower back flat the stretch in her chest and stomach will increase in size and cause the hips and foot to actually whip through faster. However, this will cause a tighter inverted C which sadly most people like to see the big inverted C position. I like fast swings over cheated and slow takeoffs.

ADTFA, I agree with you. I like to show Amy's vid to vaulters that have no idea of the POWER of the DOWNSWING. She does it ... in a VERY exagerated way. Most mere mortals won't have the flexibility in their core ... or even the daringness ... to do this drill as EXTREMELY as Amy does it. But as an example of how it CAN be done, I think it's good. The interesting part of what you say (pardon my paraphrasing) is that it's not how BIG of a downswing you have ... it's how TIGHT your core is when you stretch into the inverted-C, and then how QUICKLY you initiate the downswing.

Here in lies where you get away from a simulating drill. Why would you want that extreme flexibility in your stomach and lower back the pelvis tilts way to forward for it to remain in line with the spine. I was referring to how big the inverted C is not the downswing. The size and torque created in the downswing is a component of things that occur prior to it. Once the chest, stomach and hips have reached full stretch the swing should start. If there is a flare in the lower back with pelvis tilted forward this stretch will take longer and the reality is no stretch will exist. Hang from a high bar with someones hand on the middle of your back relax in the stomach and let the hips flare back as they pull your trail leg behind you. Notice this feeling. Now do the same thing with your stomach tight and back flat. Yes your leg can't go back as far but feel how much more elastic energy is stored in the front side of your body. Ask your partner during which way did you feel more stable and thus was harder for them to pull your foot back.

I'll add that you then need to ACCELERATE thru the downswing. This can be done thru swinging your trail leg FASTER than a natural swing ... using some muscles in your thighs and lower abdomen that you may not even know you have (or maybe you know you HAVE them, but you don't know how to USE them!) ... quadriceps, rectus femoris, tensor fascia lata, rectus abdominis, and external oblique.

These are all things that can be taught in the Stretch Whip Drill. The extreme stretch to the inverted-C position is only one aspect of this drill. Even Amy would not go this high in her elastic stretch on the pole. You should TRY to do it like Amy, but then (as ADTFA says - but I'm paraphrasing again) dial it back to something more like the "elastic stretch" of a real vault ... before your lack of an elastic stretch turns into the opposite extreme.

Two things on this is that if all you practice is huge inverted C than go now athlete dial it back and go less of an inverted C while running down the runway at top speed and planting a pole. What is the body going to do? ITs going to go back to what it is use to doing and thats a huge inverted C position off the ground. Now try this in regards to what can create more force elastic power or mechanical power. Put your hand flat on a table and tap your fore finger as hard and as fast as you can till you get tired. Now holding your palm flat pick up your index finger as high as you can with your other hand and release it. How hard did it snap back down? Despite being tired it still hit hard. Now relax your palm so that when you pick up your finger with your other hand your palm comes slightly off the table and release it again. Did it hit the table harder when it was elastically snapped (palm held down) or when you tried to do the mechanical work (palm off the table)?

An elastic stretch will always produce more force than any human can on their own you should do everything not to get in its way.

In the vault what she is doing now will [???] and I bet cause her to have a pause at takeoff in her jump and thus a delay in her swing coming off the ground ...

Yes, I'll bet you're right. I had this flaw myself ... I didn't know any better back then. It's hard to describe how to get a FULL stretch before you swing (Amy gets MORE than a full stretch), and then begin your swing IMMEDIATELY ... and I rarely see a vaulter do this properly ... but it can be done. I know it can be done, becuz I've personally experienced it. In their haste to swing, most vaulters begin the swing too early ... or (like you say re Amy), probably swing too late. The happy medium isn't just a compromise, it's an OPTIMIZE.

I gave you the answer have her or any vaulter have a tight stomach and flat back coming off the ground you will be amazed how fast they get into full stretch and start their swing on time. When there is relaxation in the stomach and hips are allowed to flare into the huge inverted C you will never get stretched in time and you will thus lose to the pole every time.

People get rid of the notion of the inverted C and its importance. How big it is is dependent on flexibility in the shoulders and hip flexors. Athletes can cheat to make a coach happy when the coach wants a big inverted C all they have to do is relax the stomach and flare the back. Major cause for back injuries as well.

[KirkB]

ADTFA, I'm still in full agreement with you, except for this one issue ...

I think you misunderstood me when I said that you should practice the Stretch Whip Drill on the rings "like Amy does", and then "dial it back" in your real vaults. As you pointed out, it doesn't work this way. But ...

What I meant to say was that most vaulters on PVP have no idea of the POWER of a good ELASTIC STRETCH ... after the takeoff toe leaves the ground, and before the DOWNSWING begins. To EXAGERATE this feeling, I have often challenged them to "do it like Amy does". To date, I haven't seen anyone come anywhere near close to Amy, and (to take your point) nor should they ... in normal practice. Rather, they should not EXAGERATE their inverted-C. I get this ... altho I admit that I prefer to err on the side of "a little too much of an elastic stretch" than "not quite enough". Quite frankly, I think the TIMING (STRETCH and then DOWNSWING - AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE - without pausing!) is actually even more important then the exact path that your body follows. Any DELAY in the DOWNSWING is PASSIVE.

But I fear that vaulters reading this will then take the position that all they need to do is stretch "just a little bit", and then expect a POWERFUL downswing. What I want them to experience ... even if only in a single practice (but I doubt that they could experience it this quickly) ... is an EXAGERATED stretch (like Amy). In my way of thinking, it's only after you experience both (a) a downswing that's too slow and too short, and (b) one that's hyper-stretched and too long ... can you then zero in (i.e. dial back) to the happy medium ... to find the optimum amount of elastic stretch, and the optimum path of the downswing (in both distance and speed).

Your demonstration of putting the palm of your hand on the table and "elastic stretching" a finger and letting it snap back is a good one. I've also seen a vid of Altius doing this ... on a vaulter's forehead. A very good demo for vaulters to understand this concept.

I expect that vaulters can understand the quest for the happy medium only AFTER they experience exagerations in both directions. Sadly, I think most vaulters have no idea of what they can do to improve the POWER in their downswing. Before I started talking about it, most vaulters on PVP weren't even focussing on the downswing ... they didn't distinguish that from the upswing ... it was just called "the swing".

Thanks for your replies. I really appreciate them!

Kirk

[AVC Coach]

I love the finger snap to demonstrate the elastic stretch! I can't wait to use that at my next practice session!

[master]

The link below should take you to the point in the discussion about the swing where Alan (altius) uses the finger snap demo. After you watch that short section, you may want to view the whole video.
video of Alan's pre-stretched finger snap to the forehead

- master

[rainbowgirl28]

How old is this young lady? How high has she jumped? What is the biggest pole she has been on?

Amy Chow... Olympic Gold Medalist in gymnastics... she pole vaulted for fun when she was in med school at Stanford. Went about 13' or so. She's maybe an inch or two over 5' tall. I don't know what size poles she was on, but I don't think they were particularly big.

[superpipe]

ADTF Academy,

Very good point on the shoulders. I can't argue about that. The reason I'm still more for swinging Bubkas on a high bar vs. the rings is that you are forced to use your core strength to hold your body alignment while you extend into a vertical position. Even Amy on the rings, really doesn't have to use much core strength to hold her body alignment while extending to vertical since there is no force acting against her aside from gravity. This acting force in a real vault would be the recoiling of the pole forward and the fact that the pole is in your way, not allowing you to swing your legs over your head ( b/c the pole is bent less than 90 degrees before you finish the swing in 99.9% of cases ). Unless you finish the swing in a real vault when the pole bent is 90 degrees or more, you will always have to use your core strength to keep your body aligned as you extend into inversion otherwise the you will flag out b/s of the acting forces I mentioned above. This core strength piece is very important for the inversion phase of the vault.

I like rings for beginners and vaulters that haven't developed enough core strength yet. Rings and Ropes do allow you to perform the pull action which highbar really doesn't.

I like them all, but swinging Bubkas would be my first pick. It's the best way to develop the required core strength in the vault.

[ADTF Academy]

The reason I'm still more for swinging Bubkas on a high bar vs. the rings is that you are forced to use your core strength to hold your body alignment while you extend into a vertical position. Even Amy on the rings, really doesn't have to use much core strength to hold her body alignment while extending to vertical since there is no force acting against her aside from gravity.

When a tremendous amount of torque is created in a tap based swing if the core strength is not there it will not work. Sometimes people and athletes think doing work means your accomplishing something. The reality is the proper minds set is doing anything that doesn't mess the system up. To perform a proper tap and swing you need to have every muscle activated. I guarantee AMY has more core strength than most guys to do what she is doing there.

This acting force in a real vault would be the recoiling of the pole forward and the fact that the pole is in your way, not allowing you to swing your legs over your head ( b/c the pole is bent less than 90 degrees before you finish the swing in 99.9% of cases ).

Once again this is the flaw in the High Bar. When your body weight is still pit side of your top hand ie shoulder pit side of top hand during your swing and extension there is very little resistance to swing to inversion. In fact the torque and momentum created during the downswing (Tap) action is redirected upwards and no mechanical work is needed on the vaulters part if done correctly and timed up. WHen the shoulders are slightly runway side of the top arm than it becomes work. Typically this occurs when the hands and feet move early and the shoulders move backwards slightly. From this position I agree 100% it is mechanical strength and core strength needed to move to inversion. This is what happens to Mark on his long approach poles. I have videos posted of him on youtube somewhere. Due to these factors he must power out of it bubka drill style.

If you watch his short approach jumps this is what we are trying to move towards you can see he doesn't need to at all. His swing is redirected vertically and he moves to inversion with no mechanical work at all. When a vaulter does this right for the first time they usually look at me and go "What was that... What just happened... Did I get upside down?" I go yes did you have to do anything and they go no and I go " THATS POLE VAULT"

The whole redistributing energy vertical can be summed up like this. I heard the deadlift comparison this is not the action you want. In a deadlift or good morning the shoulders are raised with a flat back. If the shoulders are driven fast than the hips drive forward and the feet must fall off towards the crossbar. This is not what we want. Try this sit on your butt with your chest up and hands out infront like your holding a pole in the U position. Now with someone holding your hands roll up your spin till your back is flat. This will allow your body to move vertical while keeping the legs also moving vertical. Another common phrase I say is put your pants on. YOu don't throw your shoulders back you slowly roll up your spine to pull your pants up.

I believe if you can run fast and put yourself into the correct position at takeoff both with foot placement and with posture coming off the ground. The swing takes care of itself and you only have to worry about finishing the turn and clearance. THe middle section of the vault is a blur. If you can feel out ever moment your vault is probably really slow.

[superpipe]

My whole issue with these drills is not the swing, but the extension to vertical right after the swing ends. As I mentioned before, I know the swing energy helps direct your body vertical by the time the swing ends, but there are the other forces of the pole rolling forward that fight against you. The highbar in your way simulates these apposing forces by keeping your COM in front of you which is the case in a real vault when the swing ends. The apposing forces in the vault are not as extreme as the highbar if done right, but they are still there whereas rings does not simulate any of the apposing forces of the pole rolling forward.

[KirkB]

If you watch his short approach jumps this is what we are trying to move towards you can see he doesn't need to [power out of it bubka drill style] at all. His swing is redirected vertically and he moves to inversion with no mechanical work at all. When a vaulter does this right for the first time they usually look at me and go "What was that... What just happened... Did I get upside down?" I go yes did you have to do anything and they go no and I go " THATS POLE VAULT"

The upswing is EFFORTLESS when done correctly!

The whole redistributing energy vertical can be summed up like this. I heard the deadlift comparison this is not the action you want. In a deadlift or good morning the shoulders are raised with a flat back. If the shoulders are driven fast than the hips drive forward and the feet must fall off towards the crossbar. This is not what we want. Try this sit on your butt with your chest up and hands out infront like your holding a pole in the U position. Now with someone holding your hands roll up your spine til your back is flat. This will allow your body to move vertical while keeping the legs also moving vertical. Another common phrase I say is put your pants on. You don't throw your shoulders back you slowly roll up your spine to pull your pants up.

I like the "pants" anology. In fact, I've used it myself on the BB thread ... http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16930&p=121790&hilit=kirk+pants#p121790

... if you takeoff and swing a la Petrov/Bubka, then you're going to have a powerful swing that inverts you. At this point you're upside down, and the pole is still bent. Then, you're going to "pullup", just like you might pull up your pants. (I'm serious.) Another analogy would be that you pull up just like the first part of a clean-and-jerk. (The "clean" part.)

ADTFA, I like this part of your post too ...

The swing takes care of itself and you only have to worry about finishing the turn and clearance. The middle section of the vault is a blur. If you can feel out ever moment your vault is probably really slow.

In fact, I buy into everything you say, ADTFA! You hit all the nails on the head!

Kirk