Tim McMichael is Awesome

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KYLE ELLIS
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Re: Tim McMichael is Awesome

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:02 am

Soar Like an Eagle wrote:
altius wrote:"I like the tuck". Sad - because that tuck - along with couple of other old ideas like an overly wide grip - may well prevent Jack from jumping the 6.10m he is potentially capable of. I am not criticising Tim because he went with what he knew at the time. I THINK he knows better now - but let us see what his new coach believes. i will watch with interest because Jack has the potential to be great - IF he gets the right technical model sorted out. And incidentally that will not occur if he takes advice from every elite vaulter he meets - as you implied in an earlier post - that way will only lead to confusion. Jumping the way he does he will almost certainly clear 6.00 within four years -- BUT!!


Food for thought, how high would Bubka of jumped if he jumped like Dial, McMichael, and Vigneron? We will never know, maybe 6.50, maybe not. They were little guys jumping very high 1980-1989 20 years ago. Joe jumped 18’1” in 1981 in high school when the world record was 19’0”. He was 5’8” 130 lbs who never lifted a weight in his life until college. Jack is doing quite well working with Tim and Joe. I expect big things from him this year whatever technique he is using. The Petrov technique could be the way to go, but remember the Fosbury Flop, it also important to keep an open mind.


If Bubka jumped like Tim or Joe he would of jumped LOWER! Or he would of have gotten injured. He would of had to grip lower but probably still jumping on 10.#flexes.
Bubka was the best period.
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: Tim McMichael is Awesome

Unread postby kcvault » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:16 am

Jumping technique should reflect the vaulters different strengths. If you are slow like me and can only run an 11.6 100 I would say a power swing tuck type vault would be slightly more appropriate. I can jump by swinging a long trail leg to the top but can push 3ft 5 inches off my top hand by swinging and tucking. Not the most efficient push off but it's better then I can do with a full swing. Also a shorter vaulter has shorter levers meaning they may be able to create more power by staying right side up as long as possible and swinging into a tuck to catch up. Who knows that's why you should teach in basic concepts not absolutes. A high take off, an elastic stretch, good pole drop and acceleration staying tight to the pole on top, and always trying to get the bend to role upward not bend down to you. I think these concepts we can all agree with. Other then that everyone has different strengths and there technique should reflect those strengths. (I don't believe there is anyway colwick would jump higher with an independent trail leg, though he would jump higher if he jumped up better at take off.) That being said personally when I coach I only use the patrov model. Why? Because it a very solid model, it also happens to be the easiest to teach, However when teaching this model every vaulter has there own individual uniqueness to the vault. What needs to be determined is weather that uniqueness is a strength or a weakness for that particular individual.

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Re: Tim McMichael is Awesome

Unread postby Andy_C » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:27 am

kcvault wrote:Jumping technique should reflect the vaulters different strengths. If you are slow like me and can only run an 11.6 100 I would say a power swing tuck type vault would be slightly more appropriate. I can jump by swinging a long trail leg to the top but can push 3ft 5 inches off my top hand by swinging and tucking. Not the most efficient push off but it's better then I can do with a full swing. Also a shorter vaulter has shorter levers meaning they may be able to create more power by staying right side up as long as possible and swinging into a tuck to catch up. Who knows that's why you should teach in basic concepts not absolutes. A high take off, an elastic stretch, good pole drop and acceleration staying tight to the pole on top, and always trying to get the bend to role upward not bend down to you. I think these concepts we can all agree with. Other then that everyone has different strengths and there technique should reflect those strengths. (I don't believe there is anyway colwick would jump higher with an independent trail leg, though he would jump higher if he jumped up better at take off.) That being said personally when I coach I only use the patrov model. Why? Because it a very solid model, it also happens to be the easiest to teach, However when teaching this model every vaulter has there own individual uniqueness to the vault. What needs to be determined is weather that uniqueness is a strength or a weakness for that particular individual.


From everything I've seen, anybody who adopts the Petrov model will improve no matter what their previous technical model was. The closer you get to the "pure" model, the better you will be.

It's strange to hear that you're actually doing better doing something else. As I always say, there may be an apparent problem somewhere - but the cause is somewhere else. It may not have anything to do specifically with your swing per se...

Do you take off under?
Do you take off flat?
Do you push in with the left hand?
Do you have a free take-off?
Do you carry the pole properly?
Do you drop the pole properly?
Do you plant the pole properly?
How is your stride pattern in the last 6 steps?
How is your take-off step?
Is your 2nd to last step deep?
Do you lock the hips with the legs during the swing?
Do you have a very rigid body during the aerial phases?

All of these things, while not actually part of the swing, can affect the swing tremendously in one way or another. One or more things going wrong in each of these categories are the biggest causes of a vaulter resorting to tucking and shooting in order to vault higher. It may not actually be your swing!

The interesting thing about the Petrov model is that it was scientifically created as the most biomechanically efficient way to pole vault. It was based on the theoretical principles of how to actually get maximum height coupled with human physiology. In other words, it was made as the best way for any able bodied person to pole vault. Unless you have some sort of physical disability that's preventing you from doing something (like an injury), you can do it - anybody can! While the credit goes to Bubka for making an example out of it, it was designed for anybody and everybody!

One of the biggest misconceptions is that this model, like a lot of other Soviet/Eastern Bloc technical stuff, is that they're created specifically for the athlete to maximize performance. While they did place great importance on the athlete, they placed great importance in the scientific development of their knowledge. With sporting competitions the Soviets decided to seek out the sports/events that they felt they could dominate in and then made huge efforts to develop that focus scientifically and practically - pole vault happened to be one of those events.

As a result the Petrov model was created as the absolute best way for an able bodied human to pole vault... no exceptions. Any deviation away from the model or at least it's principles will prevent you from reaching your potential. Perhaps it may not be the easiest thing to teach! It's far easier to get upside down by tucking and shooting - you won't add any energy into the system and you'll be in a bad position under the pole during the recoil but you'll be upside down. You can tuck and shoot if you take off under, push in with the left hand and swing with a soft body - you can't do a Petrov swing with those problems.

Everybody is unique and will each have their own problems and they'll have to find ways to get around those problems to reach their potential. The funny thing is, the Petrov model IS your greatest technical potential! It's not a means to an end, it IS the end! :idea:

Pardon my hard-line views but the pole vault is like taking a math test; everybody has their own handwriting, but when you put the numbers down there is only one right answer. If something has gone wrong you need to check your work thoroughly! It's a big equation and lots of things can go awry in lots of places!

All the respect in the world to you for jumping 5.40m! :yes:

If you ask me, you can jump even higher ;)
Hard work is wasted energy if you don't work wisely!

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Re: Tim McMichael is Awesome

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:36 am

I completely agree with everything that Andy_C said!

Perfect example of why American vaulting is the way it is, and why nobody will touch Bubka's records. People absolutely refuse to accept the most effecient ways to vault. So what if they are a little under, so what if they tuck, so what if they push with the bottom arm, so what if they don't carry the pole with their skelatal system, as long as they do _____- right...

And all these Petrov non-believers say well it takes a freak athlete to pull it off, well what about yelena isinbeyava (sp??), pretty sure she can't run a 11.6 100, and she doesn't tuck. And I am sure Altius has tons of teenagers who aren't very fast but are still very effecient vaulters. It takes a dedicated athlete, a patient athlete, an athlete who can understand the importance of such minute details of every single movement...
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Re: Tim McMichael is Awesome

Unread postby kcvault » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:53 pm

And all these Petrov non-believers say well it takes a freak athlete to pull it off, well what about yelena isinbeyava (sp??), pretty sure she can't run a 11.6 100, and she doesn't tuck. And I am sure Altius has tons of teenagers who aren't very fast but are still very effecient vaulters. It takes a dedicated athlete, a patient athlete, an athlete who can understand the importance of such minute details of every single movement...


Never said the patrov model is not the most effective way to jump. However I'm not going to say it's the absolutely best way to jump. it's absolutely the best way to move a not bending pole. I teach my wife to jump strictly with the petrov model and she is not very fast but I believe it's what she's going to jump highest doing and it's how I would teach anyone to jump. But that does not mean everyone is going to jump higher that way. The #1 factor with getting better with the petrov model is speed. Don't get me wrong I also jump very well with the petrov model. However the two major factors with the power swing tuck model are power and take-off angle. Which is why you see power jumpers being able to jump very high from a short run. Personally I am not very fast, But very powerful, with a high vertical leap. (I'm pretty sure Isibenyava can run an 11.6 100m dash) I am absolutely not saying that the patrov model is not the best way to jump, But I'm not saying it is, personally I think it's the easiest way to jump. I'm just saying that the focus should be more on universal themes not set in stone for example take off angle and position should be the same no matter what model your using. I know that I can roll a bigger pole to vertical in a stay down drill then in an actual vault, therefor it would be logical to assume that the longer I stay write side up and still get into the pocket the bigger pole I can use and still have an efficient jump and therefor the higher I could jump. (This works for me because i'm much more powerful then I am fast)

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Re: Tim McMichael is Awesome

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:11 pm

kcvault wrote: ... it would be logical to assume that the longer I stay write side up and still get into the pocket the bigger pole I can use and still have an efficient jump and therefor the higher I could jump. (This works for me because i'm much more powerful then I am fast)

Sorry KC, I'm not buying this. I just sent you a PM.

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Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Tim McMichael is Awesome

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:55 pm

Let's not go down this road again... The fact we have to bring all this stuff up just seems to say that people aren't ready to pick a side of the fence... When you're ON the fence, how are you gonna farm? :confused:

Obviously there is never going to be a 'perfect' model. There's always SOMETHING... Toes, fingertips, blah blah blah. For the next 200 years (or until the next MAJOR shift in pole technology comes) the Petrov model will be the (not 'one of the') BEST on the market.

If you're interested in Tim's philosophies, check out the "Some of my absolutes" thread...
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka


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