Mid Mark Chart

[dj]

hye

i will be on the road for a few days and may not get back to this until then..

but there two very good follow up points to be made about what Becca and VP said.. i haven't read the whole thread carefully and they may be more...

i think we are making too much of the height differences even from a 5' girl to a 5'8 girl.. Hopefully i can explain why when i get the time..

dj

[rainbowgirl28]

i think we are making too much of the height differences even from a 5' girl to a 5'8 girl.. Hopefully i can explain why when i get the time..

That's why I chose to go by standing reaches that were 1' apart, and which result in a takeoff mark about 1' apart. I agree that the difference between most athletes is less significant, I chose an extreme example on purpose because I need to understand better how the chart works.

[ADTF Academy]

Nothing personal, but hasn't every single one of these points been talked about like a hundred times with DJ posting the same response. I am sure he is even getting tired of posting the same things over and over again. DJ has the broken record syndrome kicked in yet.

People stop being lazy and go back and READ!!!!!!!!

If it has never been discussed or talked about than post it. Maybe someone can do a summary of every post on this topic so we can put it to bed.



Some people like a 4 step others like a 6 step either way the principles as to why are the same. People just feel one is better than the other. There are advanced things you can do with either of them, but thats not for the average person that is on here to get confused with. Heck I use a 6 and 2 step for the guys and a 4 and 2 step for the ladies. Yep I use two different ways.

Why would I use a 2 step (something new to the conversation) because at the most important instant in the vault (the plant and takeoff) it tells me if the vaulter reached into the plant or not. Appearances can sometimes lie or occurs faster than you can see and process. If vaulter is suppose to hit 27'6" and 13'6", but on a jump hits 27'6 and 13' you can assume they are either carrying greater speeds or they reached out at takeoff. You can delete the speed comment if their 6 or 4 step match up with their 2 step (if you actually know your athletes stride length and can do the math on the fly). How does this work, if they are 6 inches under at mid and 6 inches under at 2 step you would assume they should be 6 inches under at TO if they didn't reach. However if they end up 1 foot under you would assume they ran them self under to start with and worst yet reached. People tend to say well you were under at your mid so thats why you were under. Yes, but not the whole story you would have still been under and worst yet still leaning backwards at takeoff.

I personally have a sheet with ever stride mark on it (6, 4, 2 and TO) on it for a given takeoff spot. These are not based off guesses, but hundreds of approaches on and off the runway. In fact when we practice I put tape on the runway as an example Mark Hollis does his approach and I adjust the tape till he hits ever piece of tape on his way into the plant. I track every approach and we take the averages to be his marks. I even take it a step further and say well if your average takeoff spot is 13'6" and I want to challenge him to take off at 13'9" hypothetically all he should do is move his start back 3" and it should work. Mentally for most it doesn't, but with the way we do it guess what ever mark he hits 3" behind the tape and hits the 13'9" takeoff (most of the time this works he is human). Over time if his speed and power is improving we have to adjust the numbers. He doesn't try to hit them the marks are for me, the coach not him, the athlete. Once at a meet the chart adjusts a little depending on adrenaline, wind or faster surface, but it helps me identify during warmups if there is an issue with the approach. Once we dial it in then in the actually meet the charts help me instantly identify if the vaulter reaches at takeoff or is in the correct position and just under.

To be honest reaching and thus leaning back at take off is a greater issue than the magic 6 step mark. Like I have always said the charts are a great suggestions and benchmarks for goal heights to clear, but in the end you need to match your 6 step/4 step up with your ideal takeoff spot and ideal take off posture otherwise it is all pointless if you have to over stride to hit that mid and reach into the takeoff. Leaning backwards at takeoff means your losing velocity into the plant.

[VaultPurple]

Except for the fact that I have asked the question about height multiple times and it has only been answered once and it was by someone other than DJ, and their answer had no real facts of how it could work. They just said if you take off 8 inches farther out than what the chart says, move the mid back 8 inches. This can not work because then you are saying that you still only need the same amount of speed as the taller athlete to push the same hand grip into the pole, which is not true.

[KirkB]

... I personally have a sheet with every stride mark on it (6, 4, 2 and TO) on it for a given takeoff spot. These are not based off guesses, but hundreds of approaches on and off the runway. ...

ADTFA, this is really good stuff. Thanks for posting it ... I agree with you 100%.

To summarize ... and I don't mean to put words in DJ's or ADTFA's mouths, so correct me if I'm wrong, but ...

DJ sez if you're going to pick a SINGLE coach's mid-mark, then the 6-step mark is the one to pick. I think there's a certain amount of the KISS principle here ... which I agree with full-heartedly. For anyone but elites, the 6-step mark may be all you need.

ADTFA sez ... and I'm adding my 2 bits worth here too ... that to be more precise, you also need to know the 4, 2, and TO checkmarks ... becuz you might have a correct 6-step mark and then chop or over-stride ... and not hit your proper TO mark. Or you might have an incorrect 6-step mark, but by some "automatic, subconcious (expert) adjustments", an elite can still hit his TO mark perfectly. Also, everyone's penultimate and final steps vary slightly from elite athlete to elite athlete. That's why it's better to have more than one checkmark.

I just wanted to compliment ADTFA on his analysis of this ... after all, this is the Advanced Technique forum ... and to say that I think DJ's and ADTFA's ideas on this topic are not at all contradictory ... they're complimentary!

Having said that, I advise everyone except true elites to KISS and use a single checkmark ... the 6-step mid-mark (I leave the 4-step mid alternative for others to debate, since I don't coach girls). I do NOT believe that the 6-step mid belongs only in "Advanced Technique". In fact, on its own, it's probably more appropriate for all BUT elites!

And for you smart alec (I mean that in a nice, kind way) Beginners and Intermediates ... don't think you can "beat the system" and BECOME an elite by doing elite things ... such as doing a detailed 4, 2, and TO mark analysis. Part of what DJ sez (and again, DJ, please correct me if I'm wrong) ... is that there's so many OTHER more important things to work on as a Beginner or Intermediate, that checking your 4, 2, and TO marks is not the best use of your limited training time for you or your coach.

Just MHO.

Kirk

[baggettpv]

And if you want to learn how to run so that the Mid Mark Chart is relational then buy "Groundwork" by me. If your running technique is all screwed up no marks count.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[altius]

"If your running technique is all screwed up no marks count." Amen to that!

[dj]

Baggett

If your running technique is all screwed up no marks count.

This is actually not true.. (all though I do believe in training to run correctly without the pole and with the pole) you can have perfect running technique (ali Bolt) but if you don’t hit correctly at the six stride mark you will stretch or chop and totally destroy your technique, vice versa, you can have poor running technique and by “hitting the six side marks based on grip you will begin to correct your running technique.

The chart helps you run correctly because it is the correct length and frequency you need for the grip you need to jump the bar you are attempting..

this is why I have the chart and why I continue to try and show everyone why it is a valuable “tool”. The “takeoff point to grip” has NO correlation to speed and the stride lengths on the runway, but the chart is totally about that relationship, correlation of speed on the runway to grip, and is accurate.. it’s the vaulters and with “human” factors that can’t produce a consistent run and speed on every jump, BUT if you use the chart you will get more consistent and faster, more quickly and with less frustration.

My chart is a direct correlation between speed (stride length and stride frequency) and the ability to move a specific grip to vertical based on that speed. Is it an “accuracy” mark? Yes.. but the primary function is to help the athlete run correctly and fast enough to move the corresponding grip to vertical. The correlation of grip to “MID” on the chart are as close as you can get to “correct” for stride length and stride frequency and for running correctly, even factoring in very slight variations from one athlete to another and your speed from one jump to the other. I want to emphasize SLIGHT here.

Let me try and explain again. Say you can run 8.1 meters per second. 8.1 is a “flying’ time measured over 10 to 20 meters. Remember we are using frequency and length to measure with. All humans have frequencies that are pretty close to each other but length is determined by “speed” (application of force) if you are running correctly and the faster you run the longer the stride. So we can determine that to run 8.1 mps you will have steps/strides of approximately 1.90 m or 6’3” long.

So on the chart I’m talking about a 16-6 (5.00m) vault with a 14’-11” (4.55m) grip a “mid’ (six step mark) of 50 ft (15.30m)….

If you hit at 53 ft (16.23m) and can only run 8.1 mps you will have to stretch to reach the takeoff. If you stretch you will not be running technically right AND you will lose your “posture’ your pole carry and your pole drop.

I have seen it happen for 40 years and saw it happen this weekend. I watched two jumpers with equal ability working with a world class coach from a 5 left run. I sneaked over and put a chalk mark where I though (from my chart) they needed to be to run, plant and takeoff technically correct. They were 17 foot jumpers with 18+ ability. They were on the track and not planting into the box. Based on 5 steps and there speed I put the mark at 45 feet.

One of them actually hit right on the mark and was perfect.. that vaulter “felt” awesome and the coach was exceptionally pleased. The second one hit behind the mark by 3 feet (remember the coach isn’t watching my mark and doesn’t know I have it there) stretched, was very sloppy and didn’t plant and takeoff correctly. The coach intuitively and from experience started making the correct adjustments but all of us are not experienced enough to do that. Why adjustments did he make?? He started moving him in… the closer he got to the mark I put on the runway the better his technique got.

The first vaulter that was “on” from the beginning got faster and the mark was too close. He started leaning back at the takeoff.. I think everyone watching couldn’t understand why he had great technique on his first 4/5 runs and now he had “lost it”! but naturally when he built confidence he ran faster. When he ran faster he needed to move his mark back. His coach moved him back a foot and the technique corrected again.

This is why everyone should learn why and how to use the chart. It is for beginners and it should be used in drills and short runs. None of us have enough experience to intuitively pick up subtle speed changes in each vaulter every time, especially when we are generally focused on posture, pole drop, etc…

dj

[ADTF Academy]

Clap Clap Clap.....

Coaching is Part Art and Part Science.

Art is the way it looks and feels.
Science is the actual numbers being acheived.

The challenge is in order to excel as an athlete or as a coach you must learn to take both into account. A system like DJ's does that for those who have trouble figuring out the science part for themsleves. I hate to call it a cookie cutter program, but fundamentally it is. If you dont' know an athletes speed (from a speed trap or from counting frames on a film) its hard to figure out where they should be. Every athlete thinks they are faster than they really are and if their buddy is starting at 100' with a 50' mid guess what they think they can start at 100' and have that same 50' mid.

Sadly the story DJ speaks of even exsists at the elite level as well. I'll wait till Peter publishes his data from the US Nationals because I want him to get credit for the data, but afterwards I will think about posting the step charts for the top 10. We had marks on the runway for both the mens and womens competition I have already compiled most of the data to compare the vaulters against eachother.

Progression occurs 1% at a time. DJ's chart gives you benchmarks to compare what your doing in terms of mid, grip and takeoff. Do I support it? ... Yes.... Do I use it? .... NO, only to compare my athletes against it.

[KYLE ELLIS]

DJ what I have been doing with your chart is just using the athletes takeoff. So if the athletes takeoff needs to be at 9'0 then I will place their 6 stride mark at 40ft... What do you think about that??? If you agree with that then I have no more questions at all.

[dj]

let me continue….

Here is a drill, and Altius saw me do this at South Carolina several years ago.

Mark your track for pole runs like this… and I always mark it to run “with’ the wind…

I use 8 lanes and start with a 36 foot “mid” (six stride mark) .. Put chalk or a tape mark for the takeoff.. measure “forward” 7’8” and draw a box..… then measure away from the takeoff and put 6 equal steps of 4’9” (1.45m) marked with chalk or a cone, that is your “MID” or actually your 6 step coaches check mark for a 9-6 (2.90m) vault. Set up lane two with a 38 foot mid keeping the takeoffs in line across the track.. the box will get progressively longer from the takeoff as will the “MIDS”. I skip “odds” and go 36, 38, 40 etc up to lane 8 which will be a 50 foot “mid” and “theoretically” a 16-6 (5.00m) vault.

I then have the vaulters choose a lane at or inside (closer mid) than their PB. Ie, a 13-6 vaulter should start at 42’ instead of 44. by doing this I am emphasizing ‘getting the feet down” and not over striding. By moving 2 feet at a time, up or done the ladder the vaulters are more likely to “feel” a chop or more importantly a STRETCH….

I let them “runback” from the mid to give themselves the length run they needed or used to jump their PB….

We start doing pole runs on the track and making adjustments… most vaulters feel they are faster than the chart.. so they want to move up.. no problem.. I let them move up until they start to stretch, they feel it and we move back so we can work on the proper speed (ground contact time), rhythm and pole carry/drop technique. Back and forth until the “light bulb” goes on.

We moved the numbers from where they were on the teack to the runway. All but 2 of the boys/men (15-20) in the camp that Alan was at with Rusty had their run “on” as soon as we went to the runway and knew where there 6 step should be. We began to vault and make adjustments when needed.

The 2 that didn’t “get it” had their coach there and he told them they already had their run from practicing at home.. they couldn’t get “on”… I tried to take them back to the track but they refused.. and left the camp soon after that session.

Next issue..

Tall/short vaulters… it’s time I address this “issue” and I have not been avoiding it because of not having and “answer’. I have put it on the “back burner” so to speak for two reasons. The first and the major reason is as vaulters 90+ % of us STRETCH on our run already.

And when I do the math for you in speed and angle terms hopefully you will see that “maybe” it is not quite as an issue as we think….

Later

Have a couple of busy days ahead…

dj


ps the takeoff point is very important and yes if you don't "shorten' the steps from the same "MID" a shorter vaulter will be under...

but i need to emphasize that the "way" you takeoff is just as important as not being under...

i will explain that later... including the math for stride lenght and frequency for a 30cm difference on the run..

[dj]

ps kyle

i think what you do is as close as you can get to "matching' the “physics” in the chart... but i still feel that because of individual differences from athlete to athlete.. and differences other than physical height... such as reach height, slight speed differences and of course takeoff technique, that automatically moving the mid out a foot can cause the vaulter to “stretch” their strides before they know exactly the marginal differences they may have to the chart.

You can not “reach”/stretch the steps and speed up. It is impossible to shorten your ground time if you stretch…. But it is possible to shorten your ground time if you are “chopping”… think about that… shortening your ground time means you are running faster…

It’s late.. I will do the math for tall to short tomorrow.

Sweet dreams everyone……

dj