Mid Mark Chart

[dj]

by KirkB » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:07 pm

The main reason I like short runs is becuz you're running slower, so it's easier to improve your takeoff technique. And you MUST apply more JUMP ... since you don't have much runway speed.

Once you get that down pat, you do the same on long runs ... just faster. If you try to get the proper, ideal takeoff on long runs, you're running too fast to execute properly.

I usually agree with DJ, but I think this is counter to what he's saying. Just MHO.

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by dj » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:19 pm

hye..

let me try and make some points...

by IAmTheWalrus » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:44 am

At the risk of sounding dumb... I'm confused DJ. I think I got a little lost telling when you were speaking as "poster" and when you were yourself. Particularly, are you arguing that short runs are bad (which is news to me), or is that a belief of the "poster" that you are refuting. Also, these speed "guesses," are you again referring to the claims made by the poster? I've been trying to focus on greatly improving my speed and "springiness," so if there is something I missed here I'd like to know it. Thanks. I'm not the next generation of vaulter but I would like to take my vaulting to the next level.

the points that were trying to be made by the "poster"...

first i read the articles... after i read them i said "exactly"..........i only feel there was one point that was made in that material that i disagree with...

Shelia’s work is good… but this statement is incorrect...

“Because of Anthropometric difference (height, leg length, body build) you have to decide which component will give you the most bang for your buck"

i cannot explain to someone that thinks Usain Bolts longer strides were a product of his long legs... that leg lenght is not a factor.. HOW MUCH FORCE IS APPLIED AT “TAKEOFF” IS THE MAJOR FACTOR-GROUND TIME IS THE NEXT FACTOR.. end of story…

drive a 1956 Chev Malibu off the Santa Monica Pier at 60 miles and at 90 miles an hour..
if you time the ‘air time’ they both will be the same.. if you measure the distance they travel out into the Ocean which one goes farther????

if their is something i'm missing please show me... i think we went through the stride lengths and frequencies before... and the only difference anyone could find between my chart of stride lengths and stride frequencies and data found on Bubka and 20 other vaulters of varying physical heights, was a 5 1/2 INCH differences in Bubka's steps at 6 strides out compared to my chart!!!!... and that was on his top jumps and at maximum speed.

Next who and where are their speed guesses???

Next how and what “evidence” was used to refute the chart.. has Caveman or anyone that is questioning it’s validity gone to the track and “tested” it? I asked that you do that.. is no one willing to “back up” their claim that it is “wrong”.. or do you want to continue to clutter and confuse the science…

If you take the science from a Bubka jump, which gives use the last three to four steps, work that back mathematically and you will find it will hit so close to the chart for grip to “MID” to speed that you will think, no way.. it Vodoo as one disbelieve commented.


IAmTheWalrus.. what are you doing to try and improve your speed?? And I don’t want to sound to “curt” but are you trying to grow longer legs or are your really trying to correct your technique by pushing more and reaching less and trying to build more power by pulling sleds, running stadium steps, doing hang cleans and DEAD LIFTS………


dj

upps.. ps i feel that short runs (to many) tend to teach you to run wrong.. not "set up" correctly.. when you try and move to a longer run your "vault" technique may be "ok" but you will run wrong, creating the wrong physics and feel and the improvement will be minimul and you will "tap out" below your "speed' potential.....dj
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by IAmTheWalrus » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:51 pm

I am trying to improve my speed through use of dead lifts (2-3 sets of 2-3 reps, high weight) with depth jumps between sets, cleans and snatches from the floor, with similar sets and reps in the weight room. On the track I try to maintain proper sprint from in all drills and warm up exercise, start every practice with pole runs, then do sprint workouts (maximum effort, full recovery on monday; incline workout wednesday, and a longer sprint workout (i.e. n x 200m @ ~27) on friday).

Last I checked my legs have not grown in sometime... I'm not sure when I gave any indication that I was hoping they would.

If you thought I was attempting to refute any of your comments, I was not, I was merely asking for clarification because I find they way you write your posts somewhat difficult to follow, probably my low attention span.

I do "disagree" about short runs; not saying that you're wrong, I certainly have experienced difficulties from trying too hard from short runs, and moving to a 7 left approach does make the run feel almost effortless by comparison. I do find them very useful however, for development of muscle memory in the takeoff -> inversion, and that is the area where I will currently gain the most.-Nick
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by dj » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:25 pm

hye

i don't disagree with any of what your just said your doing or saying to improve your speed.... to give any suggestions i would have to see you and know where the real weakness is.. no that you need any of my help.. you seem to have the pattern laid out... do the speed drills.. never reach.. pull sleds.. even a light sled with your pole runs.........

sorry for being trit with the leg comment...

and yes i sometimes "fire away" when i think i have explained something so many times that anything i say now will only cloud the issue..

there are vaulters out there now that have a 60 foot "MID", 6 step mark and jump 6 meters.. all is needed for a world record vault is a 58 foot "MID"... why are those guys not jumping over 20 the record?? because they are over striding and can't get the hips in position correctly to jump with "physics".. by doing this incorrectly the hips lower on the run.. the "bending of the pole" and the grip is always a guess.. so you are all ways trying to find the right pole.. and a way to over come "sinking" instead of rising at the take off.......

if you run correctly the free take off and "up" impluse at takeoff will allow you consistancy and a smoother.. Plant big.. and swing.. vault with no break in the chain.. you will have more control of the grip and pole size... building not only confidence but the "feel"...

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by Bubba PV » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:14 pm

To DJ's point - I am a HUGE believer in short runs for all of the reasons you guys state. DJ has been my coach and we have spoken about this on the phone recently. I have overstayed my welcome on the short run and am no longer effective from a longer run. I'm 56 years old and can consistently jump 13'+ from 44' but my body doesn’t hold together with any runway continuity from 65'+. I'll keep one day starting shorter and the other day I will start from the 65' run and hopefully get back over 14' next year.

I don’t track my mid but when DJ was my coach he watched it every jump and it was dead on. People who don’t understand relative stride length only need to stand at the finish line and look at the sometimes drastic and varying heights of the 100m HH racers before they step into the blocks. They will all run the same number of steps and finish very close to each other.

I guess my point is I agree with much that is posted here but I also know from personal experience how right DJ usually is. In 1997 I shifted from questioning him to just asking him what’s best. He’s the man on this stuff. BubbaBubba Sparks - http://www.bubbapv.com
bubba@bubbapv.com

Buy Beginner to Bubka and Isinbayeva too!
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[dj]

good morning

i wanted to go back to this point for a moment.......

there are vaulters out there now that have a 60 foot "MID", 6 step mark and jump 6 meters.. all is needed for a world record vault is a 58 foot "MID"... why are those guys not jumping over 20 the record?? because they are over striding and can't get the hips in position correctly to jump with "physics".. by doing this incorrectly the hips lower on the run.. the "bending of the pole" and the grip is always a guess.. so you are all ways trying to find the right pole.. and a way to over come "sinking" instead of rising at the take off.......

if i was a world class male vaulter or was coaching a world class vaulter.... that has a "MID" (six stride mark) at 60 feet (18.40m) i would take him onto the track for pole runs....

i would set up three track lanes...

56' (17.15m) six steps of 6'11/2.10 meters....
57' (17.50m) six steps of 7'1/2.15m........
58’ (17.80m) six steps of 7-3/2.20m…

Set up the beginning of the run to hit the first mark (“MID”) if he is world class I would have 14 strides to the “MID” (six step mark) for a 20 stride run. Those first 14 strides should be “natural” acceleration… no bounding, skipping, hopping or “thought” just position the pole correctly, toe the mark (with your takeoff foot) lean a little and go..

Start with the 56 and try to get the feet down on each mark, use cones or wide strip if chalk.. I have used baby powder to see where the spikes hit and a broom to brush across the line to keep it ‘fresh”.

Time every run from the “MID” six step to last, the takeoff…. For right handed vaulters it is left to left…

You should have the time from meets that you were running from 60 feet.. calculate the MPS..

Check the times, MPS, you get from each run, 56-57-58…

See where you get the fastest run.. that should be your competition approach..

Add a penultimate with a takeoff “impulse” and you should be ready to PR…….

dj

ps… you don’t have to be world class to do this.. just adjust the marks to your vault height.

[rainbowgirl28]

DJ, your posts would be a lot easier to follow if you used the quote tags around anything you are quoting.

[dj]

hey

sorry.. i ust got in a hurry trying to bring everything from the other threads...

dj

[dj]

i got the following question and have tried to put together an answer....

Hey dj i had a quick question, how did you formulate the idea for the mid mark chart? Is there some kind of biomechanical equation behind it, I am still trying to wrap my head around all of it.

Hey Kyle…

There was and is an equation… 4" of grip = 12" of stride lenght over the last 6 steps on the run way to take off.... or speed (stride lenght-stride frequency)

the first “thought” in the pole vault came when my brother asked his high school vaulter to up his grip by about 4” and to move his step back a foot. At first “?” that doesn’t “add” up.. moving back a foot on your steps and only 4” (one grip) should put you way out at the takeoff if you ran the same… but knowing that if you moved up a grip you would need to run faster. (Unless you were already running fast enough) got my thoughts moving.......

So….. based on my long jump experience and using the 6 step mark and knowing that to jump farther you had to run faster and if you ran faster you had better move your step back or you would scratch.. which means the faster you are the longer your steps are….. etc..etc..

I was a decathlete with a 25 foot long jump and used a six step mark not only to be “ON” with only three chances but to adjust for the wind, a fast runway or when I was rested more and was going to run my fastest……..

For 5 years prior to my pole vault “light bulb” moment with my brother I had watched a lot of long jumpers come down the runway.. many would hit close to my own “MID” and many would hit farther out. Beamon was one that hit farther out… and when I saw him jump 27-2 indoors in Kansas City he hit 2 feet out side my mark and out jumped me by 2 feet. That was just one time in many that I saw the relationship to speed and stride length.

After my brothers comment i compared his 14 foot jumpers “MID” to several 16 foot jumpers, including myself.

What came out of that was 45/46 for 14 footers… 48/49 for 16 footers…so I looked at the math… 4” grip to 12” run.. that worked if I did.. 45=14, 46=14’6, 47=15, 48=15-6, 49=16’…… then I had to see whee the hand grips should be. I checked the poles.. and Ganslens book for “averages” .. the 14 foot grip and 15 foot vault stood out and was a good “even” number.. I also knew that to jump 17 feet was approx.. 15-2 grip. I worked down and up .. and actually divided it mathematically but since I was using feet and inches it was “even” so I did ½ in hear and there…

Then I had to do the “average” takeoff point so I decided on a reach distance that matched an average 6’ vaulter.. I think I used an 8 foot reach.. and subtracted the box depth. We can do the math with the numbers, take off distance and grip and come up with the “reach” or length of the vertical side of the triangle at the takeoff.

Then I expanded the chart up to 19’ and down to 10’. Put in some times based on the knowledge and research that higher jumpers are running faster..(or taking longer strides in the same amount of time) with some feet per second figures I obtained from some available research of the time.

So the “physics” of the chart is a faster run will have longer strides.. if you run faster you can grip higher.. all elements are mathematically proportionate. The stride length and stride frequency is directly proportionate to speed. The frequency variance is very, very small from one human to the other. The overriding factor in speed is ground time.. and to have less ground time and a longer stride you have to apply more force to the ground and in the right direction.

So 4” of grip needs 12” of running speed, stride length, to move that higher grip comfortably to vertical.

Hope some of this makes sense………

dj

[KirkB]

DJ, this all makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying this.

The way I understand it ... roughly ... you plotted the grips, speeds, and mids of a 15-0 PR vault and a 17-0 PR vault, then interpolated to get the grips and mids for vaults between 15-17 feet.

(They need to be PR vaults, becuz you have to ignore ... for instance ... 15-0 vaults by a 17-0 vaulter where he clears by a mile ... his grip will be unusually high and his mid will be unusually long.)

You then verified those numbers against actual sample vaulters. Then you extrapolated down to 10-0 and up to 19-0 and sampled the numbers again ... verifying with REAL DATA. This gave you a chart going from 10-19 feet, with the appropriate grips, mids and other measurements.

This is scientific enough for me. You discovered a trend in REAL VAULTER DATUM, and smoothed it into a curve. I applaud your work on this, and I applaud your perseverance over all your doubters and skeptics.

One thing that some people might get hung up on ... correct me if I'm wrong ... but I don't think that mids are to be taken to the nearest inch. There's so many other factors involved from one vault to the next ... and from one vaulter to the next ... that if you use the mid as a ROUGH guide ... perhaps only to the nearest half-foot or foot ... then you're close enough. A half-foot or a foot is enough for the coach to easily catch ... and significant enough for him to provide meaningful advice to the athlete on whether he's over or under. Comments?

Kirk

[dj]

hey

thanks Kirk...

you can never take them to the "nearest inch' even from vault to vault... but from my 40 years of experience if you are off 6-8 inches either way, based on grip, you will have a problem with your technique, you will delay the swing, force bend the pole, feel you need a bigger pole.. all of these-some of these.. etc and have difficulty clearing the bar more than 1-2 times out of 10.

dj

[VaultPurple]

One thing that some people might get hung up on ... correct me if I'm wrong ... but I don't think that mids are to be taken to the nearest inch. There's so many other factors involved from one vault to the next ... and from one vaulter to the next ... that if you use the mid as a ROUGH guide ... perhaps only to the nearest half-foot or foot ... then you're close enough. A half-foot or a foot is enough for the coach to easily catch ... and significant enough for him to provide meaningful advice to the athlete on whether he's over or under. Comments?

So far this year my coach has been following the mid mark chart to a T. We spent about 2 weeks just doing pole runs where the coach marked a mid then marked exactly where each foot should go after that. He had the girls grip at 12', me 13'5, and out other two guys 14'11. The main thing was he was trying to find a way to get our girls to start running from more than 5 lefts. Then Sunday we vaulted for the first time and he had everyone warm up by doing the pole runs on the track over their specified steps with the mid, then move it to the runway with the exact same steps. The guys holding 14'11 both came off the ground right away with their 50' mid, after a few run troughs just to get confidence the girls all went up (girls that usually only hold 12, ever!). They all hid the mid perfect and all hit their steps perfect.

But here is what shows how as little as 6'' makes a difference. For some reason my mid got marked at 46' (i think i was convinced mine should be longer because i was shorter and would need more speed than what the chart said). No matter what I did I could not get my step right and kept over striding. So i slowly moved up. Then once I was at pretty much 45' exactly, I went up with no problems. With the 45' mid I barely felt like I was running fast, but I was holding as high as I ever held at a meet last season, and I was going in easy.

I have not completely wrapped my mind around how it works so great for the vaulters on our team ranging from 5'4 to 6'3.... I just know it works, But I have a theory.

A) Two vaulters both hold 14', one is 6'3, one is 5'5. Both have a mid of 47'. So now the shorter vaulter is holding lower so theoretically they should have to run faster to hold as high. But when you look at the physics side of it you can use projectile motion to figure out that the shorter vaulter has to be running faster than the taller vaulter to have the same stride length. It is not completely to do with leg length, but bodies center of mass (maybe, or maybe take off angle or something). But if you pause a person's run you will notice they are actually jumping and that there are points where both feet are off the ground. Through projectile motion we can see that if you drive one car off a cliff at 100 feet, and one off a cliff at 50 feet, but both of them are traveling the same speed, the one at 100 feet will go farther. Now if we want them to land at exactly the same distance then the car on the 50 foot cliff must be driving a lot faster than the car on the 100 foot cliff. Now think of the taller vaulter as the car on the 100foot cliff, and the shorter vaulter as the car on the 50 foot cliff. When watching the center of mass of an object through the air you look at how it rotates around its center of mass, so now the taller vaulter is traveling higher through the air than the shorter vaulter, and now the shorter vaulter will have to be traveling faster to cover the same amount of stride length.

I also noticed this relationship by timing some of my vaults with a 45' mid. The chart says they should be around 1.47 seconds. I know it was hand timed, but all of my times were faster than that.


just something to think about.....

[rainbowgirl28]

A) Two vaulters both hold 14', one is 6'3, one is 5'5. Both have a mid of 47'. So now the shorter vaulter is holding lower so theoretically they should have to run faster to hold as high.

Wait either they are holding the same height on the pole or they're not? The shorter vaulter will be taking off from farther away and his pole will have a lower angle, so he needs more energy to rotate the pole to vertical when holding at the same height.




So here's a question for DJ... you state that two people of different heights will need to have the same stride length to be running at the same speed with correct form, right? But if they are both holding at the same spot on the pole, they cannot take off correctly from the same takeoff point, the shorter vaulter has to take off a little bit farther out. I _think_ maybe once on here you admitted this and said that minor adjustments could be made to the chart for this reason? But maybe someone else said that...


So my next question is this... instead of basing the chart on grip heights, why not base it solely on takeoff marks? Or is it based on takeoff marks and the grip heights are the looser suggestion?

For example, if you have a fast girl who can standing reach 6'4 and grip the pole at 13'. My math says she should be taking off at about 11'. Next you have a rather average intermediate HS boy who can reach 7'4 and grip 13'. My math says he should be taking off a touch behind 10'. So for them to take off correctly, either their mids are the same and the stride length different, or their mids are a foot apart and the stride length the same. Maybe my math is off, but the principle is the same that a shorter vaulter has to take off from farther away when holding at the same height.

Which is it? Should we adjust the mids on the chart based on grip height (compare the chart's takeoff point with where you want the athlete to take off from at that grip height) or do we ignore the grip heights and have the athlete grip at whatever height is appropriate for them if they take off correctly from the takeoff point on the chart?

[KYLE ELLIS]

A) Two vaulters both hold 14', one is 6'3, one is 5'5. Both have a mid of 47'. So now the shorter vaulter is holding lower so theoretically they should have to run faster to hold as high.

Wait either they are holding the same height on the pole or they're not? The shorter vaulter will be taking off from farther away and his pole will have a lower angle, so he needs more energy to rotate the pole to vertical when holding at the same height.




So here's a question for DJ... you state that two people of different heights will need to have the same stride length to be running at the same speed with correct form, right? But if they are both holding at the same spot on the pole, they cannot take off correctly from the same takeoff point, the shorter vaulter has to take off a little bit farther out. I _think_ maybe once on here you admitted this and said that minor adjustments could be made to the chart for this reason? But maybe someone else said that...


So my next question is this... instead of basing the chart on grip heights, why not base it solely on takeoff marks? Or is it based on takeoff marks and the grip heights are the looser suggestion?

For example, if you have a fast girl who can standing reach 6'4 and grip the pole at 13'. My math says she should be taking off at about 11'. Next you have a rather average intermediate HS boy who can reach 7'4 and grip 13'. My math says he should be taking off a touch behind 10'. So for them to take off correctly, either their mids are the same and the stride length different, or their mids are a foot apart and the stride length the same. Maybe my math is off, but the principle is the same that a shorter vaulter has to take off from farther away when holding at the same height.

Which is it? Should we adjust the mids on the chart based on grip height (compare the chart's takeoff point with where you want the athlete to take off from at that grip height) or do we ignore the grip heights and have the athlete grip at whatever height is appropriate for them if they take off correctly from the takeoff point on the chart?

That is exactly what I was trying to figure out, I guess you put it better than me. I see many factors that could change your mid; what Becca said plus planting effeciency and takeoff effeciency. YOU CAN NOT perform the last 6 steps correctly unless you first can A) hold the pole correctly B) Drop the pole correctly C)begin the planting action correctly... So to me those are issues that I still see some of the elite US vaulters still failing at; and should be addressed before anything else.

Then there is takeoff effeciency, take joe shmoe who grips way to wide and blocks off with his left arm. He can do everything above correct hit the right mid and not move the pole because of poor planting technique, even though he was running fast enough. Then take an exceptional athlete like Bubka who planted very high and elasticly, I would bet he would need less speed than the average person to move certaing grips. Its kind of like your grip to bar height ratio, I am sure ther are tons of people out there can out jump the chart and I am betting those with very effecient takeoffs like Bubka, Hooker, etc. can out grip the charts as far as speed to grip is concerned.

[VaultPurple]

rainbowgirl28 wrote:

VaultPurple wrote:A) Two vaulters both hold 14', one is 6'3, one is 5'5. Both have a mid of 47'. So now the shorter vaulter is holding lower so theoretically they should have to run faster to hold as high.



Wait either they are holding the same height on the pole or they're not? The shorter vaulter will be taking off from farther away and his pole will have a lower angle, so he needs more energy to rotate the pole to vertical when holding at the same height.




So here's a question for DJ... you state that two people of different heights will need to have the same stride length to be running at the same speed with correct form, right? But if they are both holding at the same spot on the pole, they cannot take off correctly from the same takeoff point, the shorter vaulter has to take off a little bit farther out. I _think_ maybe once on here you admitted this and said that minor adjustments could be made to the chart for this reason? But maybe someone else said that...

That was my bad, I meant to say they would be holding at the same spot.

But what I have came up with over the past few weeks of working with the chart is that there is no modification to the chart. It works for all heights of people holding the same.

hince.....

Two vaulters both hold 14', one is 6'3, one is 5'5. Both have a mid of 47'. So now the shorter vaulter is holding lower so theoretically they should have to run faster to hold as high. But when you look at the physics side of it you can use projectile motion to figure out that the shorter vaulter has to be running faster than the taller vaulter to have the same stride length. It is not completely to do with leg length, but bodies center of mass (maybe, or maybe take off angle or something). But if you pause a person's run you will notice they are actually jumping and that there are points where both feet are off the ground. Through projectile motion we can see that if you drive one car off a cliff at 100 feet, and one off a cliff at 50 feet, but both of them are traveling the same speed, the one at 100 feet will go farther. Now if we want them to land at exactly the same distance then the car on the 50 foot cliff must be driving a lot faster than the car on the 100 foot cliff. Now think of the taller vaulter as the car on the 100foot cliff, and the shorter vaulter as the car on the 50 foot cliff. When watching the center of mass of an object through the air you look at how it rotates around its center of mass, so now the taller vaulter is traveling higher through the air than the shorter vaulter, and now the shorter vaulter will have to be traveling faster to cover the same amount of stride length.

I also noticed this relationship by timing some of my vaults with a 45' mid. The chart says they should be around 1.47 seconds. I know it was hand timed, but all of my times were faster than that.

This is evident in that we have two girls both using a 12' grip and both using a 40' mid. One girl is 5'3ish and the other is about 5'5. The mid works for both of them because the shorter girl has a much quicker turnover over the last few steps and is actually running faster over the last 3 steps because of the whole projectile motion thing.

This is also why I am able to use a 45' mid with a 13'5 hand grip when I am 5'5 where the chart (well i think just the take off points) is made for someone 6'ish. But you do not have to change the mid for the farther off take off because .. 1) its probably a few negligible inches that the shorter vaulter will be able to get their foot down quicker to have a better jump at the end anyway, and 2) not quite sure how much faster the shorter vaulter is running than the taller one with the same mid, but maybe it is enough to not need that last few inches... or 3) idk, it just works.

Ive tried many times changing it because of height, like moving it according to the difference in take off and stuff.... and it usually messes something up, or i over strided, then I moved it back like the chart said and it worked.

But also I think people need to remember that pole vaulters are supposed to have a fast turn over at the end, so if the athlete does not turn their feet over, they are going to be under... they do not need to move back like most people do... they just need to run correctly!

[KYLE ELLIS]

Very scientifically backed thread... I don't know it just works. Lol.