The next generation?

[KirkB]

The main reason I like short runs is becuz you're running slower, so it's easier to improve your takeoff technique. And you MUST apply more JUMP ... since you don't have much runway speed.

Once you get that down pat, you do the same on long runs ... just faster. If you try to get the proper, ideal takeoff on long runs, you're running too fast to execute properly.

I usually agree with DJ, but I think this is counter to what he's saying. Just MHO.

Kirk

[dj]

hye..

let me try and make some points...

by IAmTheWalrus » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:44 am

At the risk of sounding dumb... I'm confused DJ. I think I got a little lost telling when you were speaking as "poster" and when you were yourself. Particularly, are you arguing that short runs are bad (which is news to me), or is that a belief of the "poster" that you are refuting. Also, these speed "guesses," are you again referring to the claims made by the poster? I've been trying to focus on greatly improving my speed and "springiness," so if there is something I missed here I'd like to know it. Thanks. I'm not the next generation of vaulter but I would like to take my vaulting to the next level.

the points that were trying to be made by the "poster"...

first i read the articles... after i read them i said "exactly"..........i only feel there was one point that was made in that material that i disagree with...

Shelia’s work is good… but this statement is incorrect...

“Because of Anthropometric difference (height, leg length, body build) you have to decide which component will give you the most bang for your buck"

i cannot explain to someone that thinks Usain Bolts longer strides were a product of his long legs... that leg lenght is not a factor.. HOW MUCH FORCE IS APPLIED AT “TAKEOFF” IS THE MAJOR FACTOR-GROUND TIME IS THE NEXT FACTOR.. end of story…

drive a 1956 Chev Malibu off the Santa Monica Pier at 60 miles and at 90 miles an hour..
if you time the ‘air time’ they both will be the same.. if you measure the distance they travel out into the Ocean which one goes farther????

if their is something i'm missing please show me... i think we went through the stride lengths and frequencies before... and the only difference anyone could find between my chart of stride lengths and stride frequencies and data found on Bubka and 20 other vaulters of varying physical heights, was a 5 1/2 INCH differences in Bubka's steps at 6 strides out compared to my chart!!!!... and that was on his top jumps and at maximum speed.

Next who and where are their speed guesses???

Next how and what “evidence” was used to refute the chart.. has Caveman or anyone that is questioning it’s validity gone to the track and “tested” it? I asked that you do that.. is no one willing to “back up” their claim that it is “wrong”.. or do you want to continue to clutter and confuse the science…

If you take the science from a Bubka jump, which gives use the last three to four steps, work that back mathematically and you will find it will hit so close to the chart for grip to “MID” to speed that you will think, no way.. it Vodoo as one disbelieve commented.


IAmTheWalrus.. what are you doing to try and improve your speed?? And I don’t want to sound to “curt” but are you trying to grow longer legs or are your really trying to correct your technique by pushing more and reaching less and trying to build more power by pulling sleds, running stadium steps, doing hang cleans and DEAD LIFTS………


dj

upps.. ps i feel that short runs (to many) tend to teach you to run wrong.. not "set up" correctly.. when you try and move to a longer run your "vault" technique may be "ok" but you will run wrong, creating the wrong physics and feel and the improvement will be minimul and you will "tap out" below your "speed' potential.....

[IAmTheWalrus]

I am trying to improve my speed through use of dead lifts (2-3 sets of 2-3 reps, high weight) with depth jumps between sets, cleans and snatches from the floor, with similar sets and reps in the weight room. On the track I try to maintain proper sprint from in all drills and warm up exercise, start every practice with pole runs, then do sprint workouts (maximum effort, full recovery on monday; incline workout wednesday, and a longer sprint workout (i.e. n x 200m @ ~27) on friday).

Last I checked my legs have not grown in sometime... I'm not sure when I gave any indication that I was hoping they would.

If you thought I was attempting to refute any of your comments, I was not, I was merely asking for clarification because I find they way you write your posts somewhat difficult to follow, probably my low attention span.

I do "disagree" about short runs; not saying that you're wrong, I certainly have experienced difficulties from trying too hard from short runs, and moving to a 7 left approach does make the run feel almost effortless by comparison. I do find them very useful however, for development of muscle memory in the takeoff -> inversion, and that is the area where I will currently gain the most.

[dj]

hye

i don't disagree with any of what your just said your doing or saying to improve your speed.... to give any suggestions i would have to see you and know where the real weakness is.. no that you need any of my help.. you seem to have the pattern laid out... do the speed drills.. never reach.. pull sleds.. even a light sled with your pole runs.........

sorry for being trit with the leg comment...

and yes i sometimes "fire away" when i think i have explained something so many times that anything i say now will only cloud the issue..

there are vaulters out there now that have a 60 foot "MID", 6 step mark and jump 6 meters.. all is needed for a world record vault is a 58 foot "MID"... why are those guys not jumping over 20 the record?? because they are over striding and can't get the hips in position correctly to jump with "physics".. by doing this incorrectly the hips lower on the run.. the "bending of the pole" and the grip is always a guess.. so you are all ways trying to find the right pole.. and a way to over come "sinking" instead of rising at the take off.......

if you run correctly the free take off and "up" impluse at takeoff will allow you consistancy and a smoother.. Plant big.. and swing.. vault with no break in the chain.. you will have more control of the grip and pole size... building not only confidence but the "feel"...

dj

[Bubba PV]

To DJ's point - I am a HUGE believer in short runs for all of the reasons you guys state. DJ has been my coach and we have spoken about this on the phone recently. I have overstayed my welcome on the short run and am no longer effective from a longer run. I'm 56 years old and can consistently jump 13'+ from 44' but my body doesn’t hold together with any runway continuity from 65'+. I'll keep one day starting shorter and the other day I will start from the 65' run and hopefully get back over 14' next year.

I don’t track my mid but when DJ was my coach he watched it every jump and it was dead on. People who don’t understand relative stride length only need to stand at the finish line and look at the sometimes drastic and varying heights of the 100m HH racers before they step into the blocks. They will all run the same number of steps and finish very close to each other.

I guess my point is I agree with much that is posted here but I also know from personal experience how right DJ usually is. In 1997 I shifted from questioning him to just asking him what’s best. He’s the man on this stuff. Bubba

[altius]

I really would appreciate it if you would ALL return to the main question instead of getting lost AGAIN in the minutiae of the run up and training for the vault. Can you not see that these are minor issues when it comes to ensuring that your best vaulters have the opportunity to work in an environment - like that in Formia or now even in Perth OZ - where they can fulfil their potential. Earl Bell and his facility has played a major role in the USA for many years and obviously the Knoxville situation was/is favourable, but what about the athletes I mentioned - are all the boxes ticked for them? If you have not already done so take a trip to Formia - or even to one of the great gymnastic training centres in your own country to see what level of professional support is required in modern sport. That was the object of my post - not to keep my name up on the board - but certainly not to rehash stuff that has been raked over a dozen times - and more!

[dj]

hey

thanks alan.. we should have keep the run discussion on the MID MARK THREAD...

i think injecting it as an issues here was ok but then we should go to the chart for the dicussion.. the way i have done with the 4 or 6 step?

sorry

dj

[IAmTheWalrus]

We need to do a better job (as a country) of supporting post collegiate vaulters financially, and giving them an optimal training system. I think, and always have, that if you are always concerned with doing well next weekend, your long term performance suffers. We need post collegiate (and even collegiate) training programs that focus on making improvements over years. My 2 cents.

[Carolina21]

Another important point I believe has been left out thus far is the availability of access to meets post-collegiately.

1) There seems to be an attitude among many colleges that unattached athletes should not be allowed to compete except for a few select meets (obviously conference/national championships are out) but, not allowing unattached athletes to compete in regular college meets doesn’t make sense to me. The reality is you need a mark to go to USA’s, indoor is a short season and if you only have 1-2 shots to get a mark it’s tough for guys on the bubble.

2) From May-July there aren’t many meets for ‘emerging elite vaulters’. Not many vaulters have $$ to get them to Europe (or other parts of the US for that matter), the few who do have money probably have $$ because they work, and so again traveling to Europe for a month is probably not possible. The prevalence of street vaults seems to be a partial solution to the problem but many of these aren’t really set up for Elite guys (small pads, old or too short runways, and I am in no way taking anything away from people hosting these meets they are great for the sport but not always set up safely for high marks).

So l’d propose that anyone who has any influence please encourage your local college programs to allow post-collegiate athletes into every meet possible (its why we do this sport – to compete, PR, etc). For events like pole vault the Elite guys really don’t affect the college vaulters anyway except to give the top college vaulters some high level competition they rarely get.

For my second point I don’t have an answer, the USA is geographically large and likely some travel will be needed to get the top jumpers together at a location with conditions to jump high. This is probably more of a money/sponsorship issue. The street vault I have been involved with each year would like one day to be able to pay all or at least some of the travel expenses for the elite section competitors, but fund raising is a constant challenge, especially when you don’t have a full or even part time person dedicating time to raising money. For now we offer prize money so at least the people who win will have some of their expenses covered. I would encourage the other street meets to try to do this as well if you want to support people in this sport trying for the next level.

[baggettpv]

To only 5.50 men and 4.40 women.

Can you make a short list of facets you have that are good where you train and a short list of things you could use but aren't available where you train.

Like: Facilities, Gymnastics, Poles, Coach, medical staff etc. Add anything I might have left off.

Thanks,

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[altius]

Thanks Carolina 21 - that begins to address one key issue. In the end the key is about the opportunity to compete at an appropriate level - training ( which is THE obsession of this site) is only a means to that end. So the question is -who has the leverage to get something done about the college competition situation? That at least would be start! I will wait with interest to see if anyone comes forward to resolve this problem - probably as important as any on the list.

[rainbowgirl28]

1) There seems to be an attitude among many colleges that unattached athletes should not be allowed to compete except for a few select meets (obviously conference/national championships are out) but, not allowing unattached athletes to compete in regular college meets doesn’t make sense to me. The reality is you need a mark to go to USA’s, indoor is a short season and if you only have 1-2 shots to get a mark it’s tough for guys on the bubble.

I have spent the last few years processing meet results, and I can tell you that a majority of college meets which are not championships and not scored dual-type meets allow unattached athletes. HOWEVER, for the emerging elite vaulters, I assume that you don't want just ANY meet, you want a meet in a good facility and with some competition, and you want it to be close to you because you can't afford to travel far.

If you are at a point in the season where any meet will do, you just want to get over a bar and have it count if it goes well, I encourage you to check out my post in the college forum about the 2010 track and field schedule.

2) From May-July there aren’t many meets for ‘emerging elite vaulters’. Not many vaulters have $$ to get them to Europe (or other parts of the US for that matter), the few who do have money probably have $$ because they work, and so again traveling to Europe for a month is probably not possible. The prevalence of street vaults seems to be a partial solution to the problem but many of these aren’t really set up for Elite guys (small pads, old or too short runways, and I am in no way taking anything away from people hosting these meets they are great for the sport but not always set up safely for high marks).

Please, please, please get involved with your local USATF Association. Find out if they have an Open Championships. Push to have this meet a in that timeframe you just mentioned, especially close to the qualifying deadline for USAs. If more of you elite and emerging elite athletes got involved at the Association level, you would be surprised the changes you could make. Most Associations LOVE to have younger people get involved.