Mid Mark Chart

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:09 am

Good morning

I’m going to spend a little time and “preach’ about the run.

Every day I’m stunned and flabbergasted with how high numerous jumpers can jump with a “short’ run, especially with American jumpers!

All a short run does is “short run = short vault.

The one thing I’m sure I know is the RUN and speed. Right now, today, I think I can RUN (at 62 yr) with most 14/15 foot vaulters. Why do I not jump 14 feet? I can run, I know the technique but have not spent the time teaching my body to vault with a fast run.

The run is the reason no one is challenging Bubka’s record. The run is the reason no one is challenging Isi and the women’s world record.

A short run becomes and “excuse”. Have you ever heard “we don’t need no @#$%# badgers!” we don’t need no short runs in world competitions.

A long run can actually be easier, faster and can put LESS stress on the body. A short run generally takes more “effort” (strain) especially over the last 3 steps, a short run many times creates a “stretched” last step, under takeoff and poor takeoff position, which adds up to strain on the body! Ergo injury.

A long run allows the vaulter to accelerate, “level” the speed, increase the frequency over the last 6 steps and still be traveling/running with much more speed (and posture) at the takeoff than can ever be gained with a short run.

It takes practice… correct practice… I am confident I can teach every vaulter how to “correctly” use a long run. On occasion I have had the opportunity to “introduce” the correct way to run to a few world class vaulters, but it takes more than one session. One session doesn’t even get the vaulter to the point of “feeling” what I’m trying to explain about the “physics” of speed. Plus almost every vaulter that has been heavily “overloaded” with the short run process will “mentally” resist (fear) going to a long run (14 strides or more).

The fear should not be there at all.

I had one young lady that simply practiced the run on the track for 3 months. Went from a very erratic 5 left run to a 7 left run and jumped a PR by a foot of 13-6.. on a borrowed pole no less, and then 2 months later borrowed another bigger pole, between jumps, and moved from a 6 lefts to 8 lefts.. she was at least a foot over the bar at 14-2 and still went too deep and bumped the bar with her wrist!

I think I could show any world class vaulter how to make the change in 3 weeks. But they have to have an “open” mind. The more they resist and the less time they spend on the track with the long run the more “confused’ they will become.

The beginning of the run from start to “MID” must be addressed in-depth at some point.

For those of you that have read Tim Mack’s book. The note about the run in Sacramento from “Tully’s Coach’ needs some clarification,

"B"
“I had talked to the coach of Mike Tully, the 1984 silver medalist in the pole vault, who has done a lot of work on stride pattern,”

“When you run the uphill part, you have to keep your posture. You also don’t cover as much ground because it’s uphill, so you move your marks up a little.”


This is slightly “true,” but that was not the entire “story” nor was it the most telling reason the run needed to be “shortened” for every vaulter, not just Tim.

First, all athletes that are in events that need an “approach” (long jump, pole vault, high jump, javelin even the hurdles) need “control.” Why do they need control?, mainly because of accuracy.

But what we really need is speed or speed and accuracy. To have both you have to understand the dynamic of acceleration. Also you have to understand that 90% of the world’s pole vaulters will come out of start of the approach and run “faster” 90% of the time when the bar is higher, when you are going for a record, when a championship is on the line and the adrenalin is up. Long jumpers do it all the time and seem to not understand and continue to foul there best jumps! Why? Because they have more speed but generally “stretch” slightly and foul.

You must “play” into that natural tendency to go faster.. because you do want speed, but with accuracy.

Learn how to be “real” fast 6 steps (3 lefts) from the box… what is great about this method of thinking and training is when you start getting faster at the “MID” the “MID” will move out and the grip will go up and……….. ; )

90% of the time when Tim (or Tully, or Bell or any other vaulter I have watched for 40 years, including Bubka) was “jacked up” he would accelerate faster (good), have shorter but faster steps and be one to 2 feet out at the “MID”. One to two feet!!! At the “MID”! I have only seen Bubka be able to make a jump with a mark “out” that much and he could only be successful if he was gripping high on his strongest pole.

A world class sprinter takes 8 steps (4 lefts) in 42 feet/12.80 meters, if you have a 14 step (7 left) approach with a 42 “MID” your total run would be 84 feet. A world class sprinter takes 12 steps (6 lefts) in 70 feet/21 meters. If you have a 18 step (9 left) approach with a 52 foot “MID” your total run would be 122 feet.
This is the type of acceleration, rhythm and speed you need from your start to your 6 step (3 left) “MID”.

Of course you are not a sprinter and you are carrying a pole but you need more speed at the “MID” if you are going to be faster at the takeoff and want to jump your best AND you need to train correctly to adjust to the natural way you will run when the Gold Medal is on the line.

Thank you for your time

dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:57 pm

4 step…

I’m not sure how deep I can get into this discussion at this point, even though there are some very import speed, posture and natural acceleration issues that continue to be over looked and/or miss understood.

First on 4 compared to 6… not even close in what it can do for your run. Why..

I think we all agree or should agree that the run and speed all starts with the first step. To be “correct” on any “check” mark (we should not call it a MID) my mark and chart is a 6 step (coaches) mark chart.. period…

First point is, the farther away from the take off that you can have a “reliable” check point the better. I consider a “reliable” distance to be far enough away from the start into the acceleration, that the stride lengths are changing very, very little.. 1 or 2 inches…. When can the 747 “rise up” and get ready for lift off.

Point two; this point, check mark, needs to be far enough away from the take off to start “shifting’ the hips into the takeoff mode and off course drop the pole in rhythm. “shifting the hips” has been studied and documented (that I personally know of back into the 60’s with russian studies of long jumpers) to the point that it should be easy to understand. In layman’s terms the hips have to be “shifted” so they align in a curtain way with the spine and the correct running action of the legs. This is what I have sometimes termed “piston” action in some of my post.

Petrov has emphasized this action with first, posture... and then with "increased stride frequency" into the take off over the last 6 strides.

What increased frequency does is cuts down the “ground time’ of each stride and positions the legs (and hips) under the body the way they need to be.

THIS IS WHAT MY CHART DOES IF FOLLOWED>>>>

My chart gives the jumper the exact (within an inch or two) stride length and frequency to match with the speed needed to move the matching grip and to have the correct “hip shift, posture, foot placement.. etc..etc..

The chart is “fool” proof. What I mean by that is this… if you run the lengths and frequency related to grip, in other words the speed needed to move that corresponding grip to vertical, you will run correctly and shift the hips correctly.

If you are running faster, correctly, you will need a 6 stride mark farther out and if you plant and takeoff correctly and don’t raise your grip with a faster speed and longer stride, you will blow through.

If you are running faster with correct technique and a 6 stride mark “to close” you will have to “chop” (or run “under” and get yanked) lose your posture and/or speed.

If you are running slower for the 6 step that you are using, you will stretch (have longer ground time) to try and be on, lower your center of mass, CANNOT shift the hips to the correct takeoff position and even if you don’t to stretch “under” you will still get “slammed” because the body mass is going down, stressing the pole more and causing a greater loss of speed.

Another big point about stretching is that it not only makes you reach but you typically will have to swing the other leg hard and wait until the mass passes the center of the mass before you push… and that will make you move the torso to “balance” so you end up swinging the pole out of a good carry position so you can never adjust back into the correct takeoff “posture’… SLAM and SLAM..

The chart is math and “physics’ based not just a figment of my imagination.

One response to a post is this.. NO.. my chart is not ‘collection” of data from ONE vaulter that has the same physical characteristics through out their vault career, ie leg length.. leg length has nothing to do with stride length or speed when an athlete is….

Running correctly …: applying more force per body mass… horizontally.. why horizontally? Because force created by leg swing and knee drive is only “useable” if it is driving or helping to “push” you in a direct line to your finish line. Once the torso-thigh angle (hip hinge) and the femur-tibia (knee hinge) reach a curtain point on the leading leg (and I don’t have those numbers handy right now) ie knee drive directly up the track.. the remaining knee lift becomes recovery, not force based.

The chart started with a ‘formula” based on a comparison of a couple of 14 foot high school vaulters and a couple of 16 foot college vaulters..

The formula was 4”(9cm) of grip = 12 inches (31cm) of speed (stride length) from 6 steps into takeoff. That means 4” (9cm) of grip needs 2 (5cm) more inches of “speed” for 6 steps to move that grip to vertical.

Then I looked at the increments between 14 and 16 foot vaults and each grip and each 12 inches 31cm) of run represented 6”(15cm) in crossbar height.

My first chart in the early 70’s was from 10 feet to 19 feet.. because girls or 19 feet had not been jumped. It had a colum for Bar height, grip, takeoff, 6 step mark and the time (in feet per second.. we, USA, were not metric yet) to cover the last 6 steps.

Someone has asked how I determine the time.. because I had feet per second on my chart way before Peter McGinnis had the meter per second for the various athletes men and women over the last 10 meters, Bubka included.

For example on my chart I have 9.1 meters per second to jump 19 feet.. now that is an average over the last 6 steps not the last 10 meters or 2 or 4 steps, I do think a vaulter can jump 19 feet running 9.1 MPS..
Let me do the math with you… because you can do this with a 4 step or a 6 step.

On my chart 19 feet (5.75) has these parameters…
a 16.85 (6) six step mark.
4.27 takeoff an (average!!)..
= 12.59m covered in 6 steps…

Divide 12.58 by the 9.1

That means 1.3824 seconds electric time… for the last 6 steps…

Check my math.. that seems slow..

So what I had prior to meeting with Peter many moons ago was the time of 1.38 to jump 19 feet.. we worked backwards and I converted to meters to come up with the 9.1 which matched closely with what he was getting with high speed camera. I think his data showed 9.5 or higher for the last 2 steps.. but if you do 6 steps the average will be lower..

Therefore.. my chart numbers…

You can pull the correct distances for 4 steps from my chart… for example.. 19 feet
You divide 12.58 by 6 = 2.097 per stride.. 4 x 2.097= 8.388 add the takeoff distance.. 4.27 + 8.388 = 12.658 which is 41.53 feet = 41’6 1/3 inches…4 step check mark for a 19 foot (5.75m) a vault…

so what do you need on the last part of the approach into the takeoff?

Posture, pole drop, frequency, speed, hip position for proper takeoff, accuracy.

Can you get as good or the same feedback from 4? My opinion no….

Think about this point.. if you are slightly “in” or “out” at 6 if have 6 steps to “adjust” with a little on each step.. with 4 your “margin of error’ or adjustment is not as good.

Next point.. I know if you run the lengths and frequencies on my chart you will be running correctly… ie. if you are over striding you will be slower and not match the frequency… ie if you are running faster and having to chop you will have to “back off” and not have the correct length or body posture to takeoff correctly.

Another key element to any “check’ point is the correct acceleration to that “check”.

Speed has an “increment” value.. you have to be at a curtain speed on step two to be faster on step 3.. curtain speed at 3 to be faster at 4… on..on..

This is where short run vaulting can get you in a “heap” of trouble… if you don’t use the 6 step chart for your short run (anything from 3 lefts, 6 steps.. yes ever from only 6 steps you should match and follow the chart for grip to “check mark”.

If you are stretching, which most of us do, especially when we are raising out grip and jumping for PR”s…, you will learn to vault with a “stretch” and mass low at takeoff.. which makes you jump on bigger poles.. which “makes” you try and force bend the pole, which makes you delay the swing out of the natural rhythm.. which in the long run may teach you to vault “without” speed and when and if you get speed you will have a very difficult time making things happen because of “feel”. You will have to slow down to vault… bummer.

Later

dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby VaultPurple » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:43 pm

A world class sprinter takes 8 steps (4 lefts) in 42 feet/12.80 meters, if you have a 14 step (7 left) approach with a 42 “MID” your total run would be 84 feet. A world class sprinter takes 12 steps (6 lefts) in 70 feet/21 meters. If you have a 18 step (9 left) approach with a 52 foot “MID” your total run would be 122 feet.
This is the type of acceleration, rhythm and speed you need from your start to your 6 step (3 left) “MID”.

Of course you are not a sprinter and you are carrying a pole but you need more speed at the “MID” if you are going to be faster at the takeoff and want to jump your best AND you need to train correctly to adjust to the natural way you will run when the Gold Medal is on the line.


So what do you propose the acceleration up until the mid be like? about 90%?

Me and my coach have been trying to follow the mid mark chart, along with some running drills to fix peoples running problmes and shorten peoples last steps.

So far we have done two workouts with the midmark, pre-season.

Day 1
Measured out mid mark on track, ran back 4 steps from the mark to get our starting point. Then we put sand over the area from the mid-mark to the take off so we could see how long each stride was. The key to this was to try to see how much people were either over-strinding on their last few steps, or how much they were chopping. Most the people over strided which I suspected, but I had about 4 inch shorter stride on my second to last step (suposed to be like 5'9 and it was 5'5).

Day 2
Measured out Mid-mark on track and ran back 4 lefts (I did 5 because I really don't have any speed till 8 lefts). Then we put a low (little trianing) hurdle between our last 4 steps (so 4 hurdles after mid. We left last two steps without a hurdle so we could try to get those steps as short as possiable.
-But the main thing we were trying to work on was getting as much speed as possiable up until the mid-mark, then being able to keep this speed with high knees, with the apropriate stride length told by chart over the hurdles, then get feet down as fast as possiable over last left.
Good drill?

Also my biggest question is about the acceleration up until the mid-mark. Should you be 'driving', ie. accelearting and strides getting longer, all the way to the mark? Then from the mark on it is just about keeping good posture and maintaining that speed while getting your hips in the right place to jump up.

Some of the biggest problmes people on my team have is either waiting too long to get to full speed, and over-striding, or the accelearte too fast and start to slow down. What would be the best way to tell them to visualize the run? Ive just been saying to hit between 90-95% of their full speed at mark then start turning the feet over as fast as possiable to get into jump position.

But all in all I think what we have been doing has helped alot, I am a big fan of long runs (use 8, 9 this summer myself). And we have a few girls on the team that never really have been past 5, and one jumps 12'6 like that, but she is over-striding really bad. Then one girl that jumped 10' from 5 lefts going over backwards in hs, and the first day drill she was running really slow and running out of gas with 7, but when we put up the hurdles something clicked and shes hitting every mark and seems twice as fast ( shes 5'10 so think were going to get a huge PR this year).

So DJ if you have any suggestions on how to improve drills involving your chart or any other acceleration/runway drills for the approch run those would be awesome, plus a little clarification about the first few steps acceleartion.

Thanks.

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:15 am

good morning,

So what do you propose the acceleration up until the mid be like? about 90%?


the acceleration should be "natural" but a little relaxed. If you and a team mate were doing a standing 30/40 meter acceleration at the end of your warm up, how would you do it?

do this with the pole...

my point is we are spending to much time trying to control and "hold back" so we have something at the end... just position the pole, focus and go...

we need to "come out of the back".... drop the pole in rhythm... increase the frequency of the last 6 steps (steps of equal length) from the check mark...
plant big and swing fast... the vault is done...

dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:18 pm

by dj » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:20 am

needed to add this here because it talks about the run.........

Usa vaulters…good morning

in 1995 Tim Mack made a commitment, and with hard work, financial insecurity, but the support of his family and friends, a University that would allow him to continue with their facility and be around their program, a coach that stayed with him even though he himself had a career and family to attend to.

I think his PR was 18-4, I know his 6 step mark was at 53-6 ish … he actually just missed the team in 2000.. he got his run too far out in Sacramento, was over striding and having difficulty getting in. when he finally got it fixed he was down to his last jump and blew through the pole. One jump from making it.

We know the next 4 years and result in 2004 … and a 54-8 six step mark, a13-8 takeoff and 16-4 grip……

I have to say here, and this is actually not the right thread… but if our coaches and athletes are as confused about how speed is created, and continue to think that how tall or short you are, has anything to do with speed, as the poster on the other thread that thinks “It has been exceptionally easy to dispute this chart” I know I will not have to worry about him or his vaulters ever making world class or beating me in a meet, or if we continue to “over emphasis” short run vaulting (it’s a game of physics and speed... and fun and yes beautiful movement when done correctly) we will continue to use the “over stride” technique, reach under at the plant technique, force bend the pole technique and the change the pole and patterns to fit out poor technique mentality that failing to generate the correct force to jump “natural” and to the Bubka and Alan model.

It’s simple.. if you don’t have the correct speed for the stride length you will “over stride”, if you over stride you will compound the problem creating a poor plant/takeoff technique. You can’t have a “free” takeoff without the right run.. and with a poor takeoff and a lack of “penetration” you have to “hang on for dear life” force bend the pole to try and make the pit.. and wonder why we cannot do what Bubka did!!!!!!!!!!..

dj

Ps .. by the way everything that the “poster’ from the other thread has brought into that discussion from the “scientific” sources.. agrees with and the chart, qctually confirms the science, math and physics of the chart… including “stride length and stride frequency”… “application of force is the key to running faster”

Shelia’s work is good… “Find the athletes optimal stride length and stride frequency.” Is a correct statement.

but..........“Because of Anthropometric difference (height, leg length, body build) you have to decide which component will give you the most bang for your buck.” Is an incorrect statement or I’m missunderstanding it.

A “stride” or “step” does not create the distance we cover on a ‘stride”.. Oxymoron? Riddle?.. we actually “bound”, leap.. down the track from the force applied at “launch” the “re-positioning of the legs” is just that (well there is some additional force added by action reaction) re-positioning to “hammer the track again to create force to “catapult” the mass (deferential) down the track.

Vince Anderson is a thumbs up… but he actually isn’t the only one with speed charts and the ones I know of are from the same “stance” and science about the creation of speed.

Someone in Jamaican seems to have “charts” because they have definitely figured it out.

Pss.. a last ps.. it may not seem like it but this info that seems to cross over several threads does pertain to “The Next Generation”. If we don’t step away from speed “thoughts’, guesses, from 15, 20, 30 years ago start to get the physics, speed and application of force right we will continue to “be lucky” when that next Gold medalist comes along.
Last edited by dj on Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:47 pm

by Capt Caveman » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:02 am

I cannot follow something that is unsupproted by all the other reseach available. Those who know WHY will always be victorious over those who only know HOW.

A quick google search and:
From http://www.gillathletics.com/articles/news120202.htm
The reality of sprinting is that we cannot have a maximum stride length and stride rate and be our fastest. What is needed is a maximum stride rate with an optimal stride length.

Maximal stride rate is how fast we can produce one stride, or in the case of the 100 meters about 50 of them. Stride rate is dependent upon a number of factors including, strength and mechanics. In order to produce greater stride rates one must be able to execute the correct stride cycle as fast as possible and with optimal length. Optimal stride length is one that allows the athlete to execute the correct stride pattern in as short a time frame as possible.

Power point slide from Shiela Burrell (sprints hurdles and jumps coach Georgetown University)
http://www.mstca.org/Clinic%202009/Spri ... ,Slide%208

It has been exceptionally easy to dispute this chart. That is not my goal but that is the reality. This is why I was asking for the research. So I could leave it off this board and read it for myself and form my own opinion. I am still open to the idea but where is the support for this other than "drink the water" as you put it. I cannot just drink the water and suggest that there is a lot of good research out there. I know I am over thinking this but the idea is compelling Fix the run use the chart, the problem is "if it sounds too good to be ture it probably is" and this one size fits all chart with no one willing to support it in any way seems too good to be true. I just want to know how the human factor noted in all the other research i have read so far is not applicaple to this chart.

I am not trying to pick a fight, but I cannot believe that anyone would follow research blindly so I must assume there is more to this than just the chart.
Those who know WHY will always be victorious over those who only know HOW.

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Re: 4 step mid?
by souleman » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:25 am
I know you're not picking a fight. On the other hand I'm wondering if the chart was called "Petrov's Mid Mark Chart" rather than "DJ's Mid Mark Chart" would you be so inquisitive. I know you're just trying to get answers and direction that frankly I don't think you will find on this forum. Those of us that use it.....use it! We do so because it works for us and our vaulters. Ladyvolscoach at one time was a non believer as well. He got a hold of it basically to disprove the thing and after working with his vaulters he couldn't. He does the dartfish thing and he sent me one (I wish I could find it, but it disappeared when my computer crashed).It's a video program that you can overlap two videos. It showed two vaulters, different heights jumping the same bar. I was amazed that when both vaulters hit the 6 step mark they "joined" together and looked like one vaulter. That showed me, and coach Job that one size does fit all. Are there adjustments? Well of course. Problem with that is if you get too far away from the "chart" you're diminishing the effectiveness of it. It's your choice. Use it or don't . As I said earlier, I use it and it helps me coach and my vaulters jump better because when they are at the top of the runway they have the confidence to know their steps are on and if that's there they are more confident with their jump. Good Luck................Mike

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Re: 4 step mid?

by Capt Caveman » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:12 am

I am inqusitive by nature so yes, I would, but that really is not the point in all of this. One person on this thread said that the chart was based on a 6'1" vaulter (DJ told them). That makes sense and if this is true how do you adjust for the varying human factors using a chart that was developed with a 6'1" male? However others have suggested it is a one size fits all chart and that does not make sense (I have not even brought up the female vs male aspect of the chart and how to adjust for those differances). No one seems to dispute there is such a thing as over striding and that doing so is detrimental but this chart seems to ignroe this possibility. There is conflicting information and I see DJ weigh in but it still leave the questions unanswered. I do not like to waste time on things in the real world that I cannot understand the WHY and only use the HOW especially if the how does not make sense to me. Not to mention I have yet to locate any other research that supports it anywhere. Because I said so was no longer an answer to any of my questions the day I moved out of my parents house (a long time ago).

Lets take a different approach, since no one seems to have the research that this chart was developed off of what are the results of the use of it?
If you applied this chart to your athletes in the real world, as many of you seem to have done, how close (what is the variance) to the #'s are your athletes. Have you had anyone succeed in spite of the chart? Is anyone dead on every # most of the time and do they meet "result" the chart suggests. Does it work the same for both your men/boys and women/girls? If you have made adjustments what are they?
Those who know WHY will always be victorious over those who only know HOW.

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Re: 4 step mid?

by dj » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:08 pm

hye

the 6'1 vaulter height was to determine a takeoff point only.... had nothing to do with the stride length and frequency numbers (6 step mark) on the chart..

lot of info is getting over lapped and mixed....

i think this thread discussion...needs to be moved to the Advanced Mid chart thread..

i have some speed studies and info i'll try and use to get to the "truth"...

in the mean time why don't everyone, while they are coaching or when they are viewing the vault.. check the 6 step mark for themselves... see where the vaulters who you think ran and jumped their best hit on the "MID" xxx no hit on the 6th step from takeoff an dhow it compares to grip and vault height.. don't count the ones that "over stride " and still make the bar..

compare the ones you consider good run and pretty goodtechnique..

come back and post the data..

be honest and real..

dj

ps start posting on the MID Chart thread under Advanced.. thanks

pss.. i fail to see where you have disputed the chart???

Stride length and stride frequency = speed....

the lengths and frequencies at every bar height and ("MID") six stride mark on my chart match the meters per second that the high speed camera has caught and documented by Peter McGinnis..., Bubka included. My chart was done (with a formula and math) with feet per second prior to the first ever 19 foot jump, actually I was checking the numbers for validity will dave Roberts was preparing to jump a world record of 18-6ish in 75? If my memory servers me correctly, not sure how that makes the math or physics wrong and/or un-verified?

i'm sure i can't, with loads of scientific work, change your thoughts on leg length but check out the Harvard Speed study (I’ll find my copy some where and send it if you would like.. but it may be reference on PVP some where) that was done on how speed is created... that says the two determining factors to stride length and stride frequency are. 1.. force in relationship to mass.. 2 ground/foot support time.. each runner has the same "air" time and each runner has approximately the same , re position the limbs ability or stride per second frequency ability...

give some thought on two 110 hurdlers who both run a 10.72 100 meters and a 14.10 110 meter hurdles. One is 5-9 and one is 6-2… both have the same stride pattern.. this is an event that “leg length” or actually center of mass is important but not because of what you think, it’d not because the 6-2 guy can take longer steps faster.. they are already taking the steps between the hurdle at the same frequency and length… what is the answer as to why the taller hurdler should be running faster even though they have the same foot speed, stride and frequency?


dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby VaultPurple » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:13 pm

Just quick question.. I know the 6'1 is for take off only, but say Im 5'5 and I grip 14'. The chart says that is a 47' mid with an 11'4 take off. But for me to have a free take off I acculay need to be takeing off from about 12'. Does that 8 inches make a diffrence? Should I use a 47' mid or a 47'8 mid? Because if I have same stride length as a 6'1 guy and I use a 47' mid im going to be 8 inches under.

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby ladyvolspvcoach » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:38 pm

Vault purple you are right! actually a 5'0" vaulter is exactly one foot further out on both the take off and mid. As for the ease with which the chart can be invalidated, I have found just the opposite. It is extremely easy to realize significant benefits by using the chart. It works perfectly regardless of whether the athlete is a woman/girl or man/boy...using the data in the chart has allowed me to develop a running drill that developes some of the fastest vaulters on any runway..The argument of stride length and stride frequency goes on. A few years ago I wanted to compare Tim Mack's run from the mid in with Bubka's when he jumped 610 early on. I was extremely surprised to see that they both had exactly the same stride frequency, and for a while I argued that they ran the same speed. They hit their mids and take off marks at exactly the same moment. Then I realized that Bubka's mid was about a foot or a foot and a half farther out than Tim's. So eventhough their feet hit the ground at exactly the same time Bubka was covering a slightly greater distance than Tim with each stride..I also have video (that has been posted several times here)of a girl who was 5'6 and one who is 5'1 superimposed and sync'd at the take off...They both gripped the same height (the key to the mid chart). They started at different spots because of acceleration patterns differing between them but as they both reached their mid they blended exactly together and hit each of their last six strides at eactly the same time and spot...so height of the athlete is not a factor in developing speed.

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:02 pm

VP

put run patterns on the track of 46, 47, and 48.. practice with these.. the same as explained before...

until a vaulter is warmed up good they usually grip a litlle lower which might mean using a mid a little closer...

i don't reccommend you automaticly adjust for the height difference you have with short compared to taller jumpers.. let the adjustment come in the process of getting "on" ... if you feel close get the feet down.. if you did that on the first run and were close move out a little but always try and get the feet down (feeling like you may be chopping.) if you stretch either run better or faster or move up..

does everyone understand that I chose the average reach height of a 6’1” vaulter (minus the box depth) for the vertical angle of the “triangle” at the take off… the grip height for the from the toe to the back of the box for the base of the triangle and did the hypotenuse and did the math to get the “base’ of the triangle from toe to the back of the box?

that is why anyone with a reach height less than the average 6’1” vaulter will takeoff “out” farther.. to be “on” and to have a free takeoff. Anyone taller will be in at the takeoff more than the average on the chart for each grip…

fa’hamm?

also always stand and push up on the toe with the pole planted, the way i have seem Baggett expalin how to know "where" your "out" or free takeoff is......


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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:27 pm

ladyvolspvcoach wrote:Vault purple you are right! actually a 5'0" vaulter is exactly one foot further out on both the take off and mid. As for the ease with which the chart can be invalidated, I have found just the opposite. It is extremely easy to realize significant benefits by using the chart. It works perfectly regardless of whether the athlete is a woman/girl or man/boy...using the data in the chart has allowed me to develop a running drill that developes some of the fastest vaulters on any runway..The argument of stride length and stride frequency goes on. A few years ago I wanted to compare Tim Mack's run from the mid in with Bubka's when he jumped 610 early on. I was extremely surprised to see that they both had exactly the same stride frequency, and for a while I argued that they ran the same speed. They hit their mids and take off marks at exactly the same moment. Then I realized that Bubka's mid was about a foot or a foot and a half farther out than Tim's. So eventhough their feet hit the ground at exactly the same time Bubka was covering a slightly greater distance than Tim with each stride..I also have video (that has been posted several times here)of a girl who was 5'6 and one who is 5'1 superimposed and sync'd at the take off...They both gripped the same height (the key to the mid chart). They started at different spots because of acceleration patterns differing between them but as they both reached their mid they blended exactly together and hit each of their last six strides at eactly the same time and spot...so height of the athlete is not a factor in developing speed.


I am confused wasn't vault-purple asking if being shorter caused the mid to be further away? If both of those vaulters hit the same marks coming in, the shorter one is going to be under at takeoff right? Or are you saying that even though their takeoff and mids were different they both had the same stride length???

Is there a biomechanical equation to all of this?? How did DJ formulate this chart?
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby VaultPurple » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:04 pm

Code: Select all

..I also have video (that has been posted several times here)of a girl who was 5'6 and one who is 5'1 superimposed and sync'd at the take off...They both gripped the same height (the key to the mid chart). They started at different spots because of acceleration patterns differing between them but as they both reached their mid they blended exactly together and hit each of their last six strides at eactly the same time and spot...so height of the athlete is not a factor in developing speed.


Here is what I do not get... If the 5'6 girl and the 5'1 girl both hit their mids at the same time, and both were running the exact same speed, and were both gripping the same... How does the shorter girl push the pole into the pit. Because her reach is 5'' shorter shouldn't she have to run faster to push the same amount of pole into the pit. Only thing I could think of is if the shorter athlete has a much better jump at the end and is just that much more powerful throught the rest of the vault.

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:08 am

hye

it's late... i think and hope i can answer the questions reasonablly..

but it will have to wait until tomorrow..

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