Rope Vaulting - Yay or Nay?

[altius]

"or at least as 'right' as it can be done!" It is not a bad idea to read a post before responding to them - so note that statement.

Happy for anybody to show me it being done as well as they can do it! As to your comment on my attitude to drills I suggest you read Chapter 18 in BTB2 - I am sure someone can lend you a copy. That chapter discusses the issues of selecting and using drills with young vaulters.

[Capt Caveman]

"or at least as 'right' as it can be done!" It is not a bad idea to read a post before responding to them - so note that statement.

Happy for anybody to show me it being done as well as they can do it! As to your comment on my attitude to drills I suggest you read Chapter 18 in BTB2 - I am sure someone can lend you a copy. That chapter discusses the issues of selecting and using drills with young vaulters.

I meant no disrespect. Your aggressive post with an "!" sounded condesending. As an author I would hope you could understand my confusion. Have you considered writing a more timely book revolving around the more recent success of your home countries coach of Steve Hooker? Alex Parnov seems to be doing some fantastic things down under and I can only imagine your relationship with that coach/club in your own country. Petrov is a legend and his pilosophy has aided Yelena in her progress (but she set several WR before moving to him) and he certainly coached the "greatest vaulter in history" but since 1994 (over 15 years ago) no one has come close to what Steve and Alex have accomplished. Not to mention the success of Burgess (also coached by Parnov). Alex has 2 of the top male vaulters in history. Is there a possibility of a Beginner to Bubka - Steve BTBS? Steve has jumped higher than anyone in history with the shortend (55mm/2.165 inch) pegs. Bubka jumped the current world record on pegs that were over 3/4" longer. While his clearance at the current WR was clean his jumps leading up to that WR could have lead to him being out of the competition long before the WR jumps (saw it on youtube). Hooker is amazing and with your resources I would love to see what they are doing in writing as compared to your past 2 books based on Petrov.

Thanks for even takeing the time to entertain a novice like me.

[KirkB]

... Have you considered writing a more timely book revolving around the more recent success of your home countries coach of Steve Hooker? ...

This is a good idea! BTB3! How about it, Altius?

But rather than go down the short-peg/long-peg road again [yawn], it would be interesting to look at the DIFFERENCES in technique between Bubka and Hooker ... and perhaps this implies a difference in coaching between Petrov and Parnov (I don't know ... you tell me) ... and the differences in the "Russian system" vs. the "Australian system" ... some of which is already sorta covered in BTB2.

Actually Altius, I think you already have a lot of good Auzzie content in BTB2 ... just not enough on Hooker and Parnov.

Kirk

[altius]

Just remember books are often written a couple of years before they are published. If you check back on pvp I have been blowing the trumpet for Alex for some time before he even started coaching Hooker -certainly before his name was common knowledge!! And also remember that Hooker went from beginner to 5.92m - which would have won in Beijing and Berlin - with Mark Stewart as his coach.

If you dont already know -and many may not - I was responsible for bringing Alex to OZ with his family in 1996 along with Dima, Victor and eventually Tatiana.

As a result I worked alongside Alex in Adelaide for over two years and his methods are basic Russian stuff - lots of drills and short approach jumping! My own view is that there is - and there will be - little if anything new after Petrov - good technique has always been good technique since the days of stiff pole vaulting and serious intelligent training has always been just that. I appreciate the joy that some folk get from examining the minutiae of technique and training in this great event but the problem in the USA - sorry caveman I only use your country as an example because that is where I spend most/all of my coaching time these days - is that there are still many coaches living in the stone age = I do apologise - with regard to pole vault technique. Essentially in my view any coach who does not employ the Petrov technical model is - to steal a phrase from a famous Texas coach - 'condemning their athletes to mediocrity', Yet many continue to deny that model -and as I once observed in another immortal phrase - sorry again - "While coaches have a thousand careers, athletes only get one."

I have no intention of rewriting BTB - because I believe that it contains pretty well everything you need to know to develop young vaulters - except of course rope jumping and under water vaulting!!! Sorry about the exclamation marks!!!

However if anyone wants to rewrite BTB they have my permission -- after all present copies have been sold - and of course as long as they give me a cut of the proceeds!! But I dont recommend that you try until you have finished your career as a coach -it is pretty time consuming.

For those who have yet to provide feedback on BTB2 I would ask you to make that a priority - if you really want to write something.

[Tim McMichael]

We developed a method that was very close to the exact action and timing of the top of the vault. Of course this was coming from the perspective of the model we were working under. The problem we had with safety was simply our over-competitiveness. Joe and I would start hammering away at one another and raising the tower higher and higher. With nobody there to tell us to stop being idiots, things got out of hand. We finally lowered the platform to the place where 19'6" was about as high as we could go and left it there. I wish I had some videos of one of these practices. It was not unusual for us to spend hours on end working on this one drill. That said, we used three pits for safety, and I would not recommend anybody trying this. Definitely a "don't try this at home" kind of thing.

[dj]

good morning

the French under Perrion (sp) Abada, Quinion, Vignerion.. used the "platform" version of rope vaulting quite a lot, jumping 20 feet... they had 2 big Dima pits to land in....

I'm not a fan of this "drill" for several reasons.. one; no takeoff "impulse" or action... two; .. it is a "get on your back-tuck and shoot action" which i don't agree with in vaulting...

i'm not saying i don't agree with Joe's or Tim’s technique i do, very much so... .. a lot can be gained from and “active” movement at this point.. Operative word.. ACTIVE.

all vaulters "tuck" (shorten the radius) to some degree.. it usually depends on how much "time" was spent on the bottom in the drive phase so to speak... and when and how fast the tuck and shoot were.

from my experience and study the "speed" of the "tuck and shoot" was the key element... to me Joe Dial would "drive-drive" and Bam.. he would tuck, accelerate the rotation to "get on top of the bend" and explode from the top.. kind of like a massive "kip" with the grip being the launch point... the first time Tully and I watched a meet together.. just after I started working with him, I told him if he, at 6-4 tall would jump like Buckingham he could grip 17 feet and jump a world record.. Joe may have been better than Buckingham (sorry Jeff).

My brother has a great platform vault set up in Orlando, huge pit.. mats everywhere.. he seems to have gotten and continues to get good results. The vaulters that “rope vault” well have good tops to their vault and have jumped high… but I personally don’t use it.

Ultimately I have to go back to the first “principle” of physical movement I learned at my university.. and that is the “SAID” principle..

Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands

Simply put, the human body will adjust or adapt to whatever it is “subjected” to the most.

What do you want the body to adapt too? For me, Physics of the event. Run-Plant-Swing.

I think Alan understands this very well and maybe it’s one of those things they used to teach us, “Back in the day” that “new” education has continued to over look.

Coaches you need to “lock” this (SAID) into your memory bank at level 1….

I know we are talking about “rope vaulting” but since I’m injecting an underlying principle I’m going to reach into my bag a little further.

If there is anything wrong with “fiberglass” being introduced into pole vaulting it is the fact that you can do things “wrong” (like an under takeoff) with fiberglass that you couldn’t do with steel and still come away with an acceptable result. Bad.. Bad.. Bad..

What is or should be the most important drill any vaulter can do??

I say “stiff pole” vaulting or a stiff pole “pop-up”.

Why? Does it fit the “SAID” principle? Can you cheat? Does it teach all the aspects of the vault? Does it follow Physics?

Here’s a rule change that should be considered. All vaulters, boy or girl should have to jump 9 feet on a stiff pole before they are allowed to bend or continue in the vault.

This would force the athlete (and the coach to teach) to acquire the physical and technical skills to vault well and SAFE!

dj

[Tim McMichael]

Here’s a rule change that should be considered. All vaulters, boy or girl should have to jump 9 feet on a stiff pole before they are allowed to bend or continue in the vault.

Amen, Amen, Amen

[baggettpv]

Girls 9' Boys 11'

My thoughts,

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[altius]

I believe that this was recommended some months ago but it is too sensible an idea to be accepted by the majority of coaches.

[baggettpv]

Matt Phillips (5.65) jumped 13'6" on a steel pole. I wonder if Bob Richards still has the money out there for anyone to jump 15' on a non bending pole? Matt quit after the pole was bent and it diddn't return to straight. My other steel poles were not available (antiques and valuable!)
We have been doing a steel pole comp in Coos Bay the last 2 years and it's quite fun for the kids/masters. My advice is to try it, you'll like it.

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[Tim McMichael]

There was a guy I competed against in high school named Russell Adams who stiff poled 15’. I know this sounds outrageous, but I saw him do it. He had what must have been a 16’ 190 or so and gripped it about 13’ and did not bend it at all. He was a fantastic hurdler and was recruited to OU with a full ride. His senior year he decided to try the long jump and went over 26’. This caused him to decide to try the decathlon and the coaches sent him over to me to work on his vault. He had not touched a pole since high school. I just showed him how to grip the pole, used his long jump approach and he cleared 17’ that first practice. I would not have believed it had I not been standing beside the runway when it happened. I have no doubt that if he had stuck with it that he would have cleared 18’ or better within a year. I am convinced that stiff poling is the best foundation for success in the vault.

[rainbowgirl28]

Hey guys, let's keep this discussion about rope vaulting. We have other threads that talk about stiff poling.

If you're going to discuss rope vault alternatives (in this thread) at least talk about ones that do not involve using the legs, as some people may be looking for things to do when they are injured or have tired legs.