Rope Vaulting - Yay or Nay?

[vaultwest]

I too believe that the most important aspect of the vault is the run, plant and takeoff and the vast majority of work should be centered around that training. But swinging and extending is also important and since I get athletes that have no back ground in gymnastics I will use any thing I can to help teach them those movements. I realize that there are many exercises in the gym that can teach those movements and I use them religiously. In my coaching carrier I have found that different athletes learn the same motions in different ways so I like to offer varied activities not only for fun and to keep interest up but also to reach the many different personalities I coach. As I said earlier I would use platform rope vaulting if I had it, I don't right now and that is fine with me I just wanted to point out that it can be a useful drill if used correctly with a safe facility.
Vault On

[Run2Niels]

vaultwest wrote:
I just wanted to point out that it can be a useful drill if used correctly with a safe facility.

And thats just the problem. It is not so easy to setup a safe facility for platform rope vaulting. But, because of the fun and maybe-usefullness in this exercise, coaches and athletes will try to set up a less then safe facility and go ahead anyway.

It all boils down to the proper supervision I believe. If only well instructed coaches may teach the polevault, there would be less accidents or near-accidents. An experienced coach, like for instance vaultwest, can make a decision on using this exercise based on his knowledge and experience. A beginner coach can't make this decision yet.
Here in the Netherlands, you can teach polevault without first going through courses designed for polevault-teaching. I see an accident waiting to happen...we are still lucky here.
The weird thing is that if you want to teach gymnastics you can only do this if you have a degree as gymnastics teacher. The polevault should have the same guidelines.
Are there any guidelines in the US about when you are allowed to teach polevault or not? Do you need to have a degree? And if so, are exercises like platform rope vaulting in the curriculum?

[powerplant42]

When thinking about this drill (as with any drill), we must remember technical priorities, safety and time management!

What are the priorities for just about any vaulter? Well, after they learn how to hold/grip the pole:

Run/Carry
Plant
Take-off
Swing
Extension/Push-off

I do not even list "fly-away" or "clearance" because it is not a phase of energy input. It is an intuitive reaction that can be and should be trained by actually vaulting. Should the vaulter be shown how to clear a bar (ie. cave in the chest, etc.)? Of course... But then again, what level actually benefits from that? Clearly not beginners... But if they are simply shown what to do in the case of bar avoidance, they should be able to build up that skill over time as they progress with their real technical development.

Time management... What else could the vaulter be doing besides rope vaulting? Is there not a high bar around? A sand pit? If so, then how much time is dedicated to those vs. the rope? How much time does the rope apparatus even take to get set up?

How safe can the drill be made? A very high-risk drill... Just a little too much adrenaline or a small lack of focus could end up very badly, especially if the supervising coach (if there even IS one) doesn't take the extra 5 seconds to cover any trouble-spots. But even with that, falling hard on a gym-mat is NOT what I would call safe. I don't think any drill should be more dangerous than the vault itself.

No attitude, just an academic perspective.

I say nay.

[PVJunkie]

A rope is valuable tool in training for the vault. I have used it for years with great success and without any injuries. It is superior to a high bar (not a substitue for) in that it can have a dobule pendulum action that the high bar cannot. It also allows for more vault like positions with the upper body. A pole unbends to a vertical line, like a rope, not a horizontal one like a high bar. There are a lot of rope drills. If you have never trained for the vault on a rope you should take a look at some of the skyjumpers videos (or check youtube) and see if it is resource that might benefit you. I dont think the issue here is yay or nay....it is the environment. Is is safe. Unsafe conditions for any drill makes that drill questionable. Put a high bar up over a bed of nails and is the high bar a yay or nay? Philosophical differances in training aside, just because you dont understand it does not mean it does not make sense and just because you dont like it does not mean it is not good.

[Run2Niels]

PVjunkie wrote:"
It is superior to a high bar (not a substitue for) in that it can have a dobule pendulum action that the high bar cannot.

It 's a pendulum with the fixed support on top and not below. So no transfer there...
Please name a specific element of the swing and extension technique which is better trained on the swinging rope than on the highbar. Just one is enough

[PVJunkie]

PVjunkie wrote:"
It is superior to a high bar (not a substitue for) in that it can have a dobule pendulum action that the high bar cannot.

It 's a pendulum with the fixed support on top and not below. So no transfer there...
Please name a specific element of the swing and extension technique which is better trained on the swinging rope than on the highbar. Just one is enough

The double pendulum action with a pole has a fixed point as well. Even though the point is above instead of below the top hand the forces experianced relate far more to the vault. If you have never done rope drills you would not appreciate the trasfer. Superior to a stationary perpendicual bar in the dynamic aspect of the motion required by the vault.

We all have drills we do and dont like. The point is no matter what drill or activity we participate in, we need to create the safest possible environment. Minimize the risk associated with being a "crazy vaulter".

[pv161]

I think rope vaulting is a great drill if done properly and safely. Some people think no drill is worthwhile if Petrov or Bubka didn't do it. I have a video of bubka doing a rope vault over a bungee so it must be ok. It's not a swing from a platform and most of us propably couldn't pull it off. I haven't looked at in a while but as I recall he takes a couple of steps and jumps onto the rope gripping it with his left hand then pulls up and regrips with his right and then swings over a bungee about the same height as his top hand.

[altius]

Love to see the video of Bubka you mention = does not sound like the kind of thing shown in any of the videos at the beginning of this thread. Incidentally if those clips represent the quality of the work done in that drill then they are great evidence that there is no relationship to effective vaulting. So those of you out there who really believe in this exercise - please show us the evidence - and of course put up film of Bubby or IZZY in competition - or any of the top JUNIORS in the world - to show us just how close how close this drill is to actual vaulting. Better still show us a series of attempts which show progression over time towards the actual vault.

There are many useful exercises you can do on a rope - the stuff shown above is not one of them.

Unfortunately this is another activity - like underwater vaulting - that can kid young athletes into believing that it will really help, when what they need to learn is that improved performance comes from the repetition of basic and progressive drills - that will help them to improve in safety. US gymnasts understand this reality and it has brought them great success, why cant all pole vaulters and their coaches?

[golfdane]

I'd prefer regular rope drills, where you jump to the rope and swing to inversion.
For bar clearance training, lie on a high plinth (+1.4m), grabbing the plinth over your shoulders. Pull yourself into a handstand (with hip flexors, abdominals and arms) and immediately push yourself over a bar onto a mat.
Very safe, and we do it with boys and girls from age 14 or so. Not that these young athletes have clearances in real polevaulting, that might benefit from it, but they really like the drill, and it gives some athletics strength, and they are able to do it rather well.

There's no point in doing a drill you can't even do properly, unless you are at a very high level like Mitch, which was/is my main objection to rope vaulting, as it is presented in the first post in this thread.

[Capt Caveman]

ROPE VAULTING is a different than ROPE DRILLS. Most of the rope drills I have seen and used are similar to high bar drills only they are on a rope, with some motion to them makeing them more dynamic. Rope vaulting is fun but I dont do it very often (unless I just want to have some fun) and I dont use rope vaulting as a prart of my training. I do use a lot of rope drills.

To answer the question - Rope Vaulting, for me, nay, but I refuse to be so narrow minded to bash a drill that someone else finds useful and beneficial. As Vaultwest said, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Coaches give individual workouts to each athlete to taylor what works to them. Isnt it the same with drills? The more options you have to help a variety of needs the better your group will be. With that mindset of some on this topic we would all still be using bamboo poles, landing in sawdust and digging a hole to plant the pole into.

If you cant do a drill right then why are you doing it - How do you learn to do it right if you dont do it?

[altius]

"How do you learn to do it right if you dont do it?" Yes indeed - but let us see film of someone doing it right - or at least as 'right' as it can be done! And then let us see film of them vaulting in competition to show the transfer.

Of course if they are just doing it for 'fun' - that is a different story. Nothing wrong with that if they have all the time they need to complete all of their required training - but how many vaulters are in that enviable situation?

[Capt Caveman]

"How do you learn to do it right if you dont do it?" Yes indeed - but let us see film of someone doing it right - or at least as 'right' as it can be done! And then let us see film of them vaulting in competition to show the transfer.

Of course if they are just doing it for 'fun' - that is a different story. Nothing wrong with that if they have all the time they need to complete all of their required training - but how many vaulters are in that enviable situation?

Are we talking about drills or rope vaulting? Ask any althete if they have done it as right as it can be done and I bet your answer will be NO. The "perfect jump" does not exist nor does the "perfect part" of a jump (a drill) exist. Since we get to practice far more than compete the goal is to perfect (or do as right as it can be done) drills so that we can do the vault as right as it can be done. How we do that is as individual as each of us are different. The whole is only as good as its parts.

What I take from your response it that there are no good drills......vault the whole only, the parts are unimportant to focus on?