Opinion of Technique (Kurt Dunn and Rory Quiller)

[joebro391]

Hey guys, been a while since I've posted, and that was primaraly because I haven't had anything to post. Yesterday was only my second meet of the season, where I jumped a PR of 14'9, however, this is not that footage. The following footage is of 2 vaulters that I know rather well and have trained with on previous occasions. Kurt Dunn, of Apex Vaulting (formely of Vertical Assault Vault Club), and Rory Quiller of Asics. They're both going from 5 Lefts, up until Rory won, at 16', and then he went to 6 Lefts for 17' (though, i've heard that he did 17' from 4 lefts).

Here's the thing, although Rory jumped higher, I'm very interested in what you all think about Kurt's Technique (and Rory's too, if you feel like commenting). To me, Kurt's technique is the best, of a non-elite vaulter, that I've ever seen. His PR is 5.20 (Rory's is 5.65 if you weren't aware) and I'm honestly suprised that that's it. I believe he has much potential and I'm kind of at a loss as to why he's not vaulted higher, from his full run. I saw him go about a foot over 5.30, a few weeks ago, only to crash down on the bar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L5IJTYHDt4

GOOD:
-Strong, powerful run
-High, early plant
-Decent Drive Knee
-Very long swing, all the way, to inversion
-Very, non-passive extension
-Obtains excellent position, to exploit recoil of pole

BAD:
-Drive knee kicks out, A TAD (similar to Stevenson and LHS, except nowhere near as much).
-MAYBE, could possibly swing, a bit stronger, but hard to tell

So yea, let me know what you all think, and maybe later, i'll post the footage of my jumps (however, they were rather ugly). -6P

[bel142]

I've jumped with Kurt and Quiller before, If kurt was built by mike of vertical assault, then what I am looking at is very typical of his club. They all have solid technique and swing very well, however I always feel like they could hit the pole better. Although he is in a very good position and moves very well on the pole, he could hit the pole harder and get into better position. Unfortunately that is something Mike Doesn't really coach, and my view of that is just because we have differences in technique and style.

When people are crashing down on the bar there is a lack of movement and rotation that is created with how they are setting up the plant, and then how they are moving on the pole... Not so much how they are swinging and inverting but more of how the multiple pendulums of their body are swinging, interacting and influencing the vaulters position on and off the pole.

Imagine or do this... if you tie three rocks to a string (This is a page from Dub Jones' lessons) Even though there is an over all pendulum with the whole string from top to bottom, there are three other individual but connected pendulums those oscillations influence the string and the other weights on the string, this is very similar to how the body reacts on the pole. And greatly influences how the body moves off the pole. If you ever get a chance to play with three weights on a string this can really help how you think about the vault.

[joebro391]

I've jumped with Kurt and Quiller before, If kurt was built by mike of vertical assault, then what I am looking at is very typical of his club. They all have solid technique and swing very well, however I always feel like they could hit the pole better. Although he is in a very good position and moves very well on the pole, he could hit the pole harder and get into better position. Unfortunately that is something Mike Doesn't really coach, and my view of that is just because we have differences in technique and style.

When people are crashing down on the bar there is a lack of movement and rotation that is created with how they are setting up the plant, and then how they are moving on the pole... Not so much how they are swinging and inverting but more of how the multiple pendulums of their body are swinging, interacting and influencing the vaulters position on and off the pole.

Couldn't have said that better, myself. Mike is an excellent coach, who was really my 'first' vault coach. He gave me a great base to build on, but, like 99.997% of vault coaches, there's always other focuses that could be addressed. The way my coach puts it, is simple (i think). Kurt doesn't hit the pole, and drive in, that split second, before swinging to inversion and this is why he usually crashes down, on the bar.

Are you from the area?? Maybe our paths have crossed, somewhere. My name's Joe Oliveri. I was coached by Mike, at Vertical, for 6 months. Spent 8 months with Dan, at iPolevault, and now I'm working with Al, at Heights Unlimited. I also did a camp with Lance, at Fiber Benders and a Camp with Alan Launder. Not to mention a lesson or two with Branco, of Apex. All these coaches have brought something unique to the table, and I don't regret training with any of them. I think that's everyone, in the area (aside from The Flying Circus) haha. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. But let me know haha. -6P

UPDATE: KURT IS NOW WITH APEX VAULTING

[bel142]

Kurt has the ability to go five meters and higher, maybe he already has. But there are a bunch of things that he needs to do to get more out of the pole. In terms of him getting to hit the pole better, and as tall as he is, I think that he needs a just a tick wider grip.

As he is right now he has a very nice take off, but looks like he doesn't have the ability to really use that stretch of the peck to feel when to start cranking on the pole to get hooked up. He keeps everything really nicely squared up front so that is a really positive thing with how he jumps. However with other vaulters not as square at take off the slight torsion of the shoulders at take off allows for the cross body stretch, this stretch allows for a huge amount of force to be used to move the pole (very similar to how javelin throwers shoulders uses their hips and shoulders together when throwing). The lack of twist in his shoulders comes from his very narrow grip, again some people may think that is a brilliant thing some people may want him to widen it up.

I see it from two optons, if he can hit the pole harder regardless of grip and shoulders, that will fix some things in his vault with allowing for more pole movement and bigger poles. or if he widens up the grip just a tick that will allow for more movement between chest, arms, pole and shoulders. However the latter would be more of a quick fix, the first option would be him learning how to maximize energy at take off fixing his run and allowing for a better take off angle and getting a tick better swing. How people see this is going to be a view of style and technique.

[joebro391]

Kurt has the ability to go five meters and higher, maybe he already has. But there are a bunch of things that he needs to do to get more out of the pole. In terms of him getting to hit the pole better, and as tall as he is, I think that he needs a just a tick wider grip.

Kurt's PR is 5.20, and I've never fully understood that concept of "hitting the pole". He is probably the most agressive vaulter I've ever seen, in person. When he run's down the runway, he's like a freight train. He's 6' 185 (i think), and he's pretty tall at take-off, but i do agree that his grip could be a bit wider, although, what do you think he'd gain out of it, beside a bit more control in his top??

He keeps everything really nicely squared up front so that is a really positive thing with how he jumps. However with other vaulters not as square at take off the slight torsion of the shoulders at take off allows for the cross body stretch, this stretch allows for a huge amount of force to be used to move the pole (very similar to how javelin throwers shoulders uses their hips and shoulders together when throwing). The lack of twist in his shoulders comes from his very narrow grip, again some people may think that is a brilliant thing some people may want him to widen it up.

could you clear that up? first you say it's good, then you say it's bad. maybe a simple typo?

i've always felt that with a narrower grip, one could drive with his chest a bit better, getting a better elastic pre-stretch. This way, he'll drive in and not come up short, AND he'll be able to whip-swing better and put more energy into the system

[bel142]

To clear things up, there are two schools of thought, one is you want a narrow grip and keep everything square, beucase a person's arms are genrally the same length so they need to be wicked narrow to grasp the pole and not allow for torsion of the shoulerds any direction left or right. With everything square the pengulum is at its most effective length.

The second is with a wider grip, when the pole hits the back of the box the force hits the vaulter and pushes one shoulder back just at tick, just from the acceptance of the enegery on the top arm/shoulder. This torsion of the shoulders puts a twist into the body that can be used like a spring or coil that is being wound to row and move the pole that can add energy into the system. I am talking about minimal movement of the shoulders, very small amount of movement.

In my opnion with the wider grip this allows for the chest to come in more, then when the vaulter moves the pole, this action (with a wider grip) is a little more effective w/ putting energy into the system. With those two ideas of technique people who like the first will think he is doing a great job at this, people like my self feel like he could be doing better.

hope that helps
-bel

[joebro391]

-bel: Okay, i gotchya. personally, i'd go with the wider grip, and try to gain the chest drive. So I suppose we share the same school of thought. -6P

[vault3rb0y]

Im taking a quote from Barto in the "Big Pole Mentality" thread in the advanced forum-

At the elite level I see fewer athletes moving up when they shouldn't, but rather too many athletes jumping on poles that are too big for them in the first place. Many elite vaulters never get their poles to vertical on any jump. Over time they develop a technique that allows them to clear bars without ever really moving the pole. This inhibits their long term development.

I believe that both Rory and Kurt are on too big of poles for that meet. The simple fact is that Kurt may have the ability to go from 5 steps on that pole, but he wasnt on it. He should continue to move past the bar and not peak a foot in front of it. This could be due to a lot of things, but like Barto said about not really making it on certain poles, it limits your long term development. In his vault, i see a solid jump, but he needs to be on a pole smaller or a fist lower grip. My guess is that he has his 5-step grip pretty close to his competition grip. You are going a lot slower from 5 than 8 or 9 and you need to adjust not just the size of the pole, but your grip. Rory can get away with more because he is so tall, but even he came almost came down on his first two bars. Only on his 6-step approach did i see a vault that kept moving past the bar.

Why hasnt kurt progressed further than 5.20? Well thats a touchy subject and my bet is that kurt could tell you better than anyone. Sometimes your technique can LOOK good but if you can be limited by one of two elements to keep you from being a 5.50+ guy. Its really not easy to do, and at that level, you have to be very fast (cant tell from the video, but he doesnt look incredibly fast.... for a 17' vaulter), hit a very efficient take off (what is his max grip on a 6-step stiff vault?... hypothetical question you dont need to know), and transfer energy quickly and efficiently with your inversion- hand action is crucial IMO. Beyond that, sometimes in your training, if you are training for big poles and not repetitions of solid vaults, you will fall into Bartos' explained dilemma. He could be over-gripping, too. Who knows? I think we would need a lot more physical capabilities to figure out whats holding him back. But the vault itself looks good, i just see room for improvement in efficency of the take off and quickness and continuity of the swing for high 17's... then it could be a matter of speed and explosive capabilities.

[KirkB]

... with a wider grip, when the pole hits the back of the box the force hits the vaulter and pushes one shoulder back just at tick, just from the acceptance of the enegery on the top arm/shoulder. This torsion of the shoulders puts a twist into the body that can be used like a spring or coil that is being wound to row and move the pole that can add energy into the system. I am talking about minimal movement of the shoulders, very small amount of movement.

In my opnion with the wider grip this allows for the chest to come in more, then when the vaulter moves the pole, this action (with a wider grip) is a little more effective w/ putting energy into the system. ...

I've never heard of this before, and I can't imagine how you can add energy into the system merely by having a wider grip.

What exactly is it that you do with the bottom arm that puts energy into the system this way?

IMO, the narrowest grip that you can comfortably carry down the runway is the optimal grip. Vaulters with a wider grip tend to push ... or press ... to much with their bottom arm. It doesn't sound like you're advocating that ... so what exactly are you saying?

Kirk

[joebro391]

vault3rb0y: I think you're right on! a bit more involved than bel, and in my honest opinion, if I was Kurt, and could have gone back and changed one 'immidiate' thing, about the meet, i woulda have probably gone down, in pole rating, a little bit {nods}. I believe that that's what Rory did, on his second jump, from his first. I can't really remember.

Kirk: I think Bel is saying, not that the wider grip makes the bottom arm work, more effectively, but that a wider grip, allows OTHER things to work a bit better. Such as chest-drive and control. Or at least, that's what I think. Maybe he means something different. -6P

[bel142]

Indeed that is more of the punch line, the 'action' of having a wider grip doesn't add energy into the vault. However with a wider grip (wider than he is using in the footage) this would allow for other things in the vault to ensue. Furthermore what I am discussing above is not so much a coachable note, rather than a positive reaction to a possible "flaw" in someone's technique.

[Branko720]

First to answer Joe's question the reason a vaulter, who has an efficient vault, doesn't jump higher is due to lack of grip. Kurt does have some work to do on his run and take off, which I know he is working on. His pr is 17'3" with a 14'9" grip. Minus the 8" in the box he is clearing 3'2" above his grip. That is a good jump. What will get him to the next level? More grip. How will he get more grip? More efficient run and take off.

If for example he was gripping 15'9" he would be jumping 18'3", or gripping 16'3" and jumping 18'9", and I would argue he would also increase his clearance above his handgrip as his grip increases. Take a look at any charts, the higher the grip the higher the clearence above grip.

As for a wider grip, how would that help? How are you going to get your lower hand and arm above your head with a wider grip. That will prevent your chest from opening up and cause your hip to move past your chest too soon in the vault. Watch any video of someone with a wide grip to examine this, and then watch Bubka and you can clearly see his hip stays behind his shoulders untill he swings. ANd lets face it, Bubka has the most dynamic vault and has kept that record for some time now.

Another question. Why would the wider grip and the torque or whatever you say benafit your path over the bar? What is the best way to get from point a to point b? In a staight line, you are elongating that trip. That is wasted energy.

I could be totally wrong though, but I'm trying. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise.