A Flexible High Bar

[Noah C]

I drew it with paint, uploaded it to photobucket, and used the [ IMG ] code. but I see what you are saying about more pole needed for it to bend. I have another idea, maybe the pole could be suspended? But still be in some way stationary? Its very hard to let something move, but keep it still at the same time lol. I'll draw a picture and post my idea.

[Noah C]

Ok the pole (purple) is suspended. The uprights are the brown. The cable/rope/chain/whatever is the black. The suspension allows the pole to flex and have compression (in the direction of the red arrow). The blue could be tensioned to the uprights just tight enough to hold the pole within maybe 8-10" of its position at rest? It would be easier to make the uprights 3d. then you could have something going perpindicular to the pole where it meets the black cable. it would be on the same plane as the pole. Does that make sense? It would hold the pole perfectly stationary, yet allow it to bend. If it doesnt make sense, I'll just have to try to do the best I can on paint. lol I hope you understand most of what I'm saying though!

[vault3rb0y]

It makes perfect sense. Just not economic sense. HOWEVER.... that contraption looks a whole lot like a set of rings. Maybe theres a way to combine these two concepts into one device. hmmm.....

[KirkB]

I drew it with paint, uploaded it to photobucket, and used the [ IMG ] code.

You can skip the Photobucket step if you save the output from Paint in JPEG format, then insert it inline to your post.

I like the basic concept of your first diagram, but I don't see why the cotter pins are necessary. If the flexible pole is sufficiently long, then it won't slide out of the supports.

As 3P0 noted, the second diagram might be materialized better as a pair of rings ... back to the idea of providing a "spring system" in the cables.

I will add 2 more ideas to think about tho ...

1. Sort of like you suggested, provide horizontal stabilizing "guy wires" (maybe bungee cords?) to the rings, so that they don't swing as much. That's one reason I like highbar over rings - you don't have to worry about the rings swinging ... they tend to swing in a way that gets worse on every rep.

2. Taking idea #1 and making the bungee cord stabilizers a little stiffer (to try to simulate the actual stiffness of a pole ... on a short run) ... and positioned in such a way that they can be used to slow you down ... as you take a running jump onto the rings (trying to simulate a real vault) ... and then do your one-legged vault swing.

I've thought of this second idea for years, but have never actually tried it. You have 3 choices for the dismount. Either you (a) release the rings and land onto a mat (dangerous!) or a pit (safer) after you swing ONCE; or (b) you continue to hang onto the rings and swing back to the equilibrium point ... where the bungees substantially hold the rings statically ... directly below their supports (while you hang upside down); or you (c) same as (b), except you let your legs drop back down as the rings swing back to their equilibrium point.

I don't know what choice would be best. I'd just try all 3 and see what happens.

I lean towards (b) ... I don't know ... it would be safer than (a), and while you hang upside down waiting for the rings to return to their equilibrium, it might give you a chance to get used to hanging upside down ... and give you time to "think" about what you did on your takeoff/swing.

Since I've never tried this exactly as described, consider this all "expiremental".

rings to practice vault takeoffs.JPG (6.35 KiB) Viewed 4077 times

In this diagram, the 2 red lines represent the bungees. I should have drawn 4 lines, so the the rings are stabilized from swinging both backwards and forwards. However, I'm not an artist (this is a feeble attempt at a 3D drawing of the rings hung from the ceiling with supporting bungees), and for such a simple sketch, I'm not going to bother drawing the other 2 bungees. If I did, there would be too many lines in the diagram, and it would just confuse you. So just imagine 2 more red lines ... for 2 more bungee cords ... opposite from these 2 cords. I show these cords attached to the floor, but they could be attached to the walls if they're close enough.

Since Altius didn't like my idea of popping a straight-pole swing into a back somi, I'll say in advance that this drill will not simulate the feel of a real vault PERFECTLY. I've tried it WITHOUT the bungees, and it's just a beginner's drill to get used to the swinging action. I doubt that it's a good drill for elite vaulters (unless you really calibrate the flex of the bungees perfectly PLUS add "springs" inline to the vertical ring supports perfectly) ... but they might play around with it just for the fun of it (not to improve their precise technique).

If you try this WITHOUT the bungees (it's a better drill than on the rope, IMO), be sure you have a spotter that can (a) catch you if you're about to fall; and (b) stop you from swinging back and forth (to help you dismount safely). Come to think of it, I guess I would be remiss if I didn't say that you should ALWAYS have a spotter ... not matter how you try this drill.

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

I'd say we've sufficiently covered what we need and how we will use it. It's just a matter of putting it together. I dont know about you guys, but i will find a space in our indoor facility that might work, look up prices for all these different ideas and decide what will work best. Time to put these thoughts to action!

[chasing6]

2. Taking idea #1 and making the bungee cord stabilizers a little stiffer (to try to simulate the actual stiffness of a pole ... on a short run) ... and positioned in such a way that they can be used to slow you down ... as you take a running jump onto the rings (trying to simulate a real vault) ... and then do your one-legged vault swing.

I really like this idea. You could take it one step further and put a bat (stubbie, pole piece, whatever you want to call them) through the rings and tape it in place. What you get is essentially a trapeze, and I think it would add a nice highbar element to the drill. Just make sure the bat sticks out a good 6" on each side for safety's sake.

[KirkB]

You could take it one step further and put a ... stubbie ... through the rings and tape it in place. What you get is essentially a trapeze ...

Yes, but ...

The advantage of rings over highbar (or "trapeze") in this drill is that the highbar isn't in the way as you swing to an inverted position.

If you're thinking that grasping a highbar simulates grasping a pole better than grasping rings, you're fretting over a miniscule detail. Really, neither one is going to be EXACTLY the same as a pole, so don't worry about it ... it's just not that important.

What's important (on this particular drill) is getting the feel of a good takeoff (you could raise the rings to a challenging height so that you HAVE to jump to grasp them), and then swinging one-legged.

In addition to letting you invert more fully, the rings (compared to a highbar) relieve you of the issue of how to hold your hands. Since the rings swivel, you'll be holding you hands in a "natural" position.

Don't make this drill (or apparatus) any more complicated than it needs to be.

Kirk

[chasing6]

Kirk,

I agree that fretting over simulating grip or how to hold your hands is overboard. My thought process was that although rings do allow you to invert more fully, they don't account for the fact that in a real vault there is something in the way... the pole. Don't get me wrong, rings are fantastic for swing/inversion drills, but I always enjoyed highbar (or trapeze) drills because it helps the vaulter "feel" how to get inverted without letting their legs cross the plane of their hands. You could still do a run, jump and swing drill on a trapeze with much the same benefit, but with the added "realistic" feel.

All that being said, I understand the advantages of rings, but my personal preference is highbar/trapeze. And since this is the "A Flexible High Bar" thread I though I'd toss in my ideas.

[KirkB]

... I always enjoyed highbar (or trapeze) drills because it helps the vaulter "feel" how to get inverted without letting their legs cross the plane of their hands. You could still do a run, jump and swing drill on a trapeze with much the same benefit, but with the added "realistic" feel.

All that being said, I understand the advantages of rings, but my personal preference is highbar/trapeze. And since this is the "A Flexible High Bar" thread I though I'd toss in my ideas.

I'm with you ... just making sure that both the pros and the cons of the alternatives are discussed ...

Your ideas are sound.

In fact, the disadvantages of the highbar getting in the way kinda go away when you take a running leap at it ... and it MOVES horizontally ... according to the "flex" of the red bungees in my sketch. In this scenario ... since the bungees will slow down the trapeze ... your legs aren't in danger of hitting the bar near the end of your swing/extension.

To be honest, I was thinking more about as you swang BACK ... recovering from your forwards swing ... the bar would be in the way. But by then, the important part of the drill is over anyway.

I'm warming up to your idea. I think it has merit. I still would not absolutely say trapeze instead of rings ... instead I'd say TRY BOTH!

The REALLY important part of this drill is immediately after takeoff, as you drive your chest forward and begin your downswing ... and MAYBE including the Whip. The rest is gravy.

Kirk

[KirkB]

I found this patent today, which looks like a good solution to putting a "shock absorber" into the ring cables. But I don't know where to find them. Just because something's patented doesn't mean it's commercially available.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4738444.html

Kirk