Non-Petrovers

[altius]

Now that has produced a couple of great responses -from iamawalrus and pogostick - that go a long way to explaining why things are as they are. Agapit has made it clear that it takes two years to change to this model if you have been doing things differently = especially if you have been taking off well under and bending the pole before you leave the ground -common problems in the US. I would say again that it is the system which makes the whole thing a lottery and where there appears to be no incentive for coaches who introduce youngsters to the sport to improve their understanding of the event - short termism rules at the bottom as well as the top of the system. So at every clinic I work in the USA, most youngsters turn up with techniques which incorporate at least some of the myths I outlined in Chapter 6.

The sad thing is that it is not difficult to teach the fundamental elements of the Petrov model - it just needs an insistence of executing the elements of the model correctly. The photo of 12 year old Lizzie Parnov on page 88 of BTB demonstrates all of the elements of the Petrov take off - even a pre jump! Now jumping 13' at age 14, her stick like body would also confound those who believe that weight training rather than technical work is the key to development in the vault. However this raises a host of other issues that it may not be possible to resolve at high school level.

Note that we have our own problems in OZ. Relatively few youngsters are exposed to the event in the first place and the majority have a very limited career because of our geography - and lack of a college scholarship system - which means that even fewer get a chance to compete beyond the age of 18. Hooker was lucky to live in Melbourne - perhaps the only city in OZ with a viable club competition structure -and to meet Mark Stewart who is not only a great coach but was so committed to the event that he was able to nurse Steve through the blackest of periods for a vaulter -inability to get off the ground at all! I suspect that in the US Steve might have become a pretty useful 200 runner.

Tim -I appreciate the chance to work with you - would be nice if a few other coaches in your area turned up!

[KirkB]

I consider myself a student of this event, and I love it too much to ignore anything that will make the sport and my coaching better. I have strenuously argued for a better understanding of different techniques, especially the tradition that produced the success that Joe Dial enjoyed and also myself to a limited degree, but I am more than happy to host Coach Launder here in Oklahoma. I want to learn how to coach the Petrov model better, and I will not consider myself a complete coach unless I can do so. ... I have always claimed to have an open mind, even when we have disagreed. ... I would consider myself a hypocrite if I did not at least avail myself of the opportunity to understand more, and just plain silly if I thought I could aquire coach Launder's experience on my own.

Tim's open-mindedness is one of the reasons why I admire him so much as a coach! My admiration of Tim began last summer, when he published the Oklahoma Manifesto, and then again when he debated whether or not the pole would bend with NO PRESSURE from the bottom arm. He not only argued his side eloquently, but he was willing to subject himself to a personal experiment, where he video'd himself vaulting with top hand only ... with a free takeoff! He discovered ... much to his own surprise ... that the pole did in fact bend without bottom arm pressure! The key ... I think ... was that just as he says ... he truly is ... and will continue to be ... a student of the our beloved event. He has an open mind, and this open mind is what allows him to LEARN and to UNDERSTAND more than someone that just sticks to a single model ... be it the Petrov OR the Drive model.

Trained with/by Joe Dial and his father, Tim learned the Drive Model without the benefit of being exposed to the Petrov Model. Who knows how his personal PV career ... and his coaching career ... might have gone if he learned the Petrov Model first. In addition to being well trained by the Dials, Tim also trained himself ... if you read his Oklahoma Manifesto you will know that he took it upon himself to learn every trick in the book ... and then some ... even when he had no one else to vault with or be coached by.

As an EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL and INNOVATIVE student (shall we say Graduate Student?) of the Drive Model, Tim could very easily have just stick with that. But by learning the Petrov Model ... and coaching it in parallel to coaching the Drive Model ... Tim is uniquely positioned as a coach to understand the fine details of both models ... and to use this knowledge for the betterment of his students.

Two thumbs up for Tim!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Wally, thanks for your thougtful comments about this topic from a college vaulter's perspective. It was very insightful and enlightening! Very good points!

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

Tim -I appreciate the chance to work with you - would be nice if a few other coaches in your area turned up!

I'm not a coach, but since i have aspirations to become one, and not just an average one, let me know when and where and i will packing up the station wagon for a week long study session!!! What two better people to learn from, outside of your primary coaches, than Tim and Alan??

[baggettpv]

I would like to add to the subject that this model (like any other) should be used from the beginning of training. Not as a correction to another. I just witnessed a HS meet with 31 jumpers. About 5 that were running freely, jumping at takeoff and swinging so that they went over the bar with their belly facing down.... All the others were holding too high, bending the pole while they were on the ground and had their feet going everywhere... what a sight to see. Surely these 26 boys were not being taught how to successfully Pole Vault. But you have to agree that their coaches were thinking they were teaching them how to do it. I am just trying to figure out what these boys were being taught how to do. Oh yeah, it was the same with the girls.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[rainbowgirl28]

The photo of 12 year old Lizzie Parnov on page 88 of BTB demonstrates all of the elements of the Petrov take off - even a pre jump! Now jumping 13' at age 14, her stick like body would also confound those who believe that weight training rather than technical work is the key to development in the vault. However this raises a host of other issues that it may not be possible to resolve at high school level.

Alan you can't judge how much time an athlete spends in the weight room solely by physical appearance. Genetics plays a huge role there. Of course an athletic prepubescent girl from a family of athletes is going to look like a stick. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have Erica Bartolina who looks like a professional bodybuilder. Yes, Erica lifts weights, but most women could do the same weight training she does and never come near looking as muscular and ripped as she does. When I was in college I was one of the strongest looking girls in a group of 9 female vaulters... yet I was the weakest one in the weight room!

I get the point you are making, but please don't perpetuate the myth that spending time in the weight room will make someone big and bulky and someone who does not spend time in the weight room will be lean and mean. There are many more factors at work, you know that.

[jam354]

Scenario 1: A truly gifted athlete decides to join the track team. His coach immediately tells him he want him to focus on the pole vault rather than the other events that he would probably excel at as well. The coach happens to be one of the few high school coaches who fully understands the Petrov model. The vaulter enjoys enormous success and earns a scholarship to a school where the coach is also a Petrov descendent and has even more knowledge to advance this vaulter. The vaulter has enormous success and becomes an elite vaulter and finds a coach with even more understanding of the Petrov model to advance. The vaulter breaks the world record.

Scenario 2: A truly gifted athlete joins the track team. After trying out a bunch of events, the coach decides he should try the pole vault. The coach knows some aspects of the Petrov model, but is certainly not an expert. The athlete begins to jump well and win meets and championships. The coach knows there are some major flaws, but he sees no reason to go backwards since the athlete is doing so well. The vaulter wins multiple state championships and earns a fulls scholarsip to college. The college coach sees the flaws also, but knows that with this athletes particular athletic qualities, he could win NCAAs. So he concentrates on tweeking technique and ignores the major non-Petrovian flaws. The vaulter wins NCAAs and starts training for the Olympics. He gets better and better but eventually comes to the realization that his flaws are preventing him from going for a world record and wishes he could go back to high school and learn all over again.

Which scenario seems more likely?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Petrov start working with Bubka when he was 10? How will that situation ever be replicated in America. Even if a great coach gets hooked up with a great athlete, they most likely will not start at age 10 and work together until the athlete is in their 30s. And even if they did, the coach will not have the understanding of the model that Petrov himself. Bubka's scenario was like if Anthony Curran went to middle school meets around the country, picked out the 10 best athletes and told them they were going to UCLA and he would be training them until then and through the Olympics. It just seems unfeasible. This is why we aren't good at soccer either. Beckam signed with Man United and started training with them when he was something like 14.

The question is, how do we fix it? Obviously, the more coaches who understand the model, the better the odds. However, until we start sending the best athletes to the best pole vault coach in the world at a young age, we will be a little behind what Bubka did because that is basically the way his career happened. The best chance, realistically speaking for an American to take the record to new heights would be if someone like Toby Stevenson or someone who at least attempt the Petrov model has a son, and becomes their lifelong coach. Sort of like Jan and Chlesea Johnson. But I used to go to Jan's camps every summer, and as I said before, I never heard the name Petrov until I was out of college.

The point is, not only did Bubka practice the Petrov model, but he learned it from it's inventor at a very young age. So maybe it is not just the model itslef that is important, but the circumstances in which Bubka learned and practiced the event.

[altius]

"I get the point you are making, but please don't perpetuate the myth that spending time in the weight room will make someone big and bulky and someone who does not spend time in the weight room will be lean and mean."

Becca - IF you take the time to really read my posts I never suggested that "spending time in the weight room would make someone big and bulky". I tend not to perpetuate myths Becca - I set out to debunk them - and I believe that I have the knowledge and experience to do that!

The point I have been making for years - it would seem - again read my posts - is that far too many coaches and young athletes spend time in the weight room when their biggest priority should be improving their technique through the repetition of basic drills in the vault. In this event the priority should be technique first last and foremost - oh but I have written that previously!

As to the effect of weight training - again if you read my coaching vitae you will see that my major area of expertise and experience - until I met Petrov - was in the throwing events. As you may know, these events - especially the shot and discus - do require that the athlete work really hard to develop their physical qualities along with their technique - but again technique is critical, However my second love has always been the javelin - where I have coached international class men and women. The women I have coached in the javelin have all been tall slender girls who continued to look like models despite - or perhaps because of - their serious weight training program. So yes I do know that weight training does not necessarily turn folk into hulks! But then I never said it did.

I have great respect for what you do with PVP Becca, but I suggest that you consider your own very limited experience before you leap in to chastise old folk like myself.

[altius]

And by the way - insightful comments Jam354!

Then if developing potential world record holders is not likely with the present system - the question may be "Can the mastery of some of the elements of the Petrov model - such as the run and take off -which really only require the repetition of the basic drills I continually allude to - lead to safer vaulting and some improvement in performance - while laying the groundwork (pun not intended) for the rest of the vault if the athlete has the ability and support - or simply the desire - to continue vaulting - as did Tim Mack and Jeff Hartwig?

With apologies to all the English professors for the ridiculous sentence.

[KirkB]

Scenario 1: A truly gifted athlete decides to join the track team. His coach immediately tells him he want him to focus on the pole vault rather than the other events that he would probably excel at as well. The coach happens to be one of the few high school coaches who fully understands the Petrov model. The vaulter enjoys enormous success and earns a scholarship to a school where the coach is also a Petrov descendent and has even more knowledge to advance this vaulter. The vaulter has enormous success and becomes an elite vaulter and finds a coach with even more understanding of the Petrov model to advance. The vaulter breaks the world record.

Scenario 2: A truly gifted athlete joins the track team. After trying out a bunch of events, the coach decides he should try the pole vault. The coach knows some aspects of the Petrov model, but is certainly not an expert. The athlete begins to jump well and win meets and championships. The coach knows there are some major flaws, but he sees no reason to go backwards since the athlete is doing so well. The vaulter wins multiple state championships and earns a fulls scholarsip to college. The college coach sees the flaws also, but knows that with this athletes particular athletic qualities, he could win NCAAs. So he concentrates on tweeking technique and ignores the major non-Petrovian flaws. The vaulter wins NCAAs and starts training for the Olympics. He gets better and better but eventually comes to the realization that his flaws are preventing him from going for a world record and wishes he could go back to high school and learn all over again.

Scenario 3: An exceptionally strong (but not exceptionally fast) athlete with good coordination (and determination) in HS had no PV coach ... but learned how to PV on his own ... by picking up what he heard and saw from other vaulters and coaches from other schools ... and what he read. His technique had many, many flaws, but he still jumped sufficiently high ... to attract a college scholarship at a university that had a coach that understood and practiced the Petrov Model. This coach IMMEDIATELY started to transform him into a Petrov-style vaulter, but it was a 2-year transformation, so he red-shirted his freshman year. By his Junior year, the vaulter was practicing the Petrov Model amazingly well, and his PR was within 8" of the WR. In his Senior year, he breaks his own national record (from the year before), and makes his country's Olympic Team.

An improbable scenario, you say? A fairy tale? Well ... it might sound improbable to many of you ... but I know that this scenario is 100% POSSIBLE, because I LIVED IT! it's essentially (not exactly) the story of my own PV career!

I realize that the WR was far more attainable in my day, and that it's easier to make the Canadian Olympic Team than the Americon Team, but if you discount this scenario on that basis alone, you miss my point.

My main point is that today ... with the internet ... and with slo-mo YouTube videos of many, many elite vaulters ... using a variety of styles and techiques ... the information is out there ... so there's really not much excuse for a HS vaulter or coach to say that he's unaware of how to vault or coach "properly". As long as you have access to a PC in your HS or local library, you don't even need to afford one yourself! And today, you can buy the BTB2 book too ... and have expert advice at your fingertips!

So what's the problem? I don't see it, but then again, I suppose I'm biased by my own personal experience.

Today, I don't see why a vaulter even has to wait until a college coach transforms his technique. Why not just EDUCATE yourself, and learn "proper" technique (via "proper" training methods) in your first year of HS vaulting?

In my experience, vaulting the Petrov way is actually EASIER than trying to use brute strength and "MUSCLE-UP" and over the bar! Far, far easier! So why vault "the hard way" in HS?

Kirk

[jam354]

Scenario 3: An exceptionally strong (but not exceptionally fast) athlete with good coordination (and determination) in HS had no PV coach ... but learned how to PV on his own ... by picking up what he heard and saw from other vaulters and coaches from other schools ... and what he read. His technique had many, many flaws, but he still jumped sufficiently high ... to attract a college scholarship at a university that had a coach that understood and practiced the Petrov Model. This coach IMMEDIATELY started to transform him into a Petrov-style vaulter, but it was a 2-year transformation, so he red-shirted his freshman year. By his Junior year, the vaulter was practicing the Petrov Model amazingly well, and his PR was within 8" of the WR. In his Senior year, he breaks his own national record (from the year before), and makes his country's Olympic Team.

An improbable scenario, you say? A fairy tale? Well ... it might sound improbable to many of you ... but I know that this scenario is 100% POSSIBLE, because I LIVED IT! it's essentially (not exactly) the story of my own PV career!

I realize that the WR was far more attainable in my day, and that it's easier to make the Canadian Olympic Team than the Americon Team, but if you discount this scenario on that basis alone, you miss my point.

Kirk

That is very similar to Senario 2 in that they have gotten good enough to get close to the world record, but not break it. Your story is a great one. But what if you had Petrov as a coach for 20 years starting at 10 years old. What would have you done? I myself am starting to vault again because I'm sure I can break my PR that I set 10 years ago because of the knowledge I now have. You are right on when about the easily accesible information, which increases the odds, but it still does not compare to having Petrov as your personal coach.

All that I am saying is that the nature of pole vaulting in America puts us at a disadvantage not only because of our reluctance to adopt the Petrov model, but also because we don't have athletes that start training seriously with the best coaches in the world from a young age.(not that I agree they should) Why does America have thne best basketball players? Because there are thousands of kids living in the inner city who play 5 hours a day starting at age 6.

[KirkB]

... what if you had Petrov as a coach for 20 years starting at 10 years old. What would have you done? ...

I'm confident that I could have broken the WR ... even in about 14 years ... not 20. But that's on a couple HUGE conditions ...

1. That I would have been recruited by Petrov at age 10. This is a HIGHLY UNLIKELY scenario, since I was a so-called 90-pound weakling at that age, and showed very few signs of athletic strength or prowess. I enjoyed sports A LOT then, but I was mediocre at best. Even in my small home town (pop. ~10,000) there were plenty of better specimens for him to choose from.

2. I stayed healthy.

3. Someone else that he also recruited but was FASTER than me didn't break it first.

Actually ... to ARGUE your point ... I don't think I would even have needed Petrov as a coach. If I had understood the true meaning and physics of the continuous chain model ... and applied it ... that would have been enough. That is, if I had my career to do over again ... applying what I learned in this past year ... then I could have vaulted higher ... especially in my Senior year at UW.

... You are right on about the easily accessible information, which increases the odds, but it still does not compare to having Petrov as your personal coach.

True, but let's be realistic. Petrov isn't available, so we all must make do with what we have. Even Hooker doesn't have Petrov as his personal coach. But in Parnov, he has the next best thing ... and he just MIGHT break Bubka's WR!

So I do agree that even if we can't clone Petrov, we can at least develop the "potential Parnovs" of America into reasonable substitutes ... and they in turn will develop the "potential Bubkas". There's already a sprinkling of these types of coaches across the USA!

And of course, the raw "Bubka-like" talent is there too!

Kirk