Non-Petrovers

[tennpolevault]

Very interesting conversation guys. I would be interested to hear Altius comments on this young vaulter. Old post here...but I plan to really train him under the petrov model after this season. This was several months ago from 5 on a very small pole. His full jumps looks quite similar when he is vaulting with confidence which has been an issue at times. Obviously left arm block and chest drive will be an issue. He has a big knee drive/stretch which sometimes slows him down through the bottom. He tends to blow out almost any pole I put him on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1_kbmqlmT8

[altius]

TPV - when I first saw this clip some time ago I was really impressed. Should have said so at the time! You are right- apart from the left arm problem- which could be solved simply by adjusting the position of his bottom hand on the pole -so getting the elbow outside the pole - this will stop him resisting the pole early - I think he is well on the way to the Petrov model. I am sure you know exactly what you are doing but if you want to check out what I am talking about, the dvd Charlie referred to (negatively!!) shows young athletes using the left arm properly - as do the images in BTB2. Good luck - I would like to follow his progress.

[Tim McMichael]

Dean Starkey was the physically strongest vaulter I ever saw, with perhaps the exception of Dave Volz. He could put his body in positions during a jump through sheer force. This is one of the things that made him such a dangerous competitor. If his run and step was anywhere close to on, he was going to jump something high.

On the evidence I believe he was trying to be a petrovite - but did not have the entire picture. Pity, because he was a great athlete

That is where most of us were in the late 80's and early 90's. We were scrambling desperately to try to catch up to Bubka and doing our best to copy what we saw in his jump. But we did not have the information we needed, especially about the pole carry and approach mechanics. These are so crucial to the execution of Petrov's technique that I don't believe anyone not following his form in the first few steps of the run can be considered accomplished at this model.

If a person has enough guts to get COMPLETELY inverted with the pole still bent, they will get a hell of a ride!!!

Here I must take issue. The positions later in the jump are dependent on what came before them, and in the case of the Petrov model the early extension up the pole is not as difficult as it seems once the prerequisites are achieved. The vault done right should feel smooth and natural and most importantly, safe. The word "inverted" is not in my coaching vocabulary right now because practically everybody who comes to me is obsessed with it. Their attempts to get upside down while ignoring the crucial aspects of the jump that will put them in the right position is ruining their vault. I have to get them to focus on their approach and pole carry first and this is difficult because as Alan observed, too many athletes and coaches believe the vault begins at takeoff.

[ACvault]

Here I must take issue. The positions later in the jump are dependent on what came before them, and in the case of the Petrov model the early extension up the pole is not as difficult as it seems once the prerequisites are achieved. The vault done right should feel smooth and natural and most importantly, safe. The word "inverted" is not in my coaching vocabulary right now because practically everybody who comes to me is obsessed with it. Their attempts to get upside down while ignoring the crucial aspects of the jump that will put them in the right position is ruining their vault. I have to get them to focus on their approach and pole carry first and this is difficult because as Alan observed, too many athletes and coaches believe the vault begins at takeoff.

Tim I could not agree with you more! The things that happen in the air are a result of the things you do on the ground! That means have proper running mechanics and pole carry, an early plant and an efficient take off!

[Barto]

I banned the terms "inverted" and "upside down" from practice a long time ago.

[vault3rb0y]

Here it is worth emphasising that there is no reason why any athlete cannot master everything Bubka did - UNTIL the moment he left the ground - then it gets a bit more difficult. All it takes is a sound understanding of his method and thousands of repetitions - which could of course be done in the time often wasted in the weight room!!!!!

Couldnt any athlete hit the positions, but its just a matter of with what speed and strength they are able to do it?

It was stated a while back that any model must have the ability to be reproduced by ANYONE at ANY ability level. I believe anyone can master everything bubka did, just not with the speed and strength he did (unless of course you are a great physical athlete). As far as staying ahead of the pole and hitting a free take off, etc, its just a matter of holding at the right place on the right pole to recreate bubkas jump- the only difference is energy levels.

[jam354]

That is where most of us were in the late 80's and early 90's. We were scrambling desperately to try to catch up to Bubka and doing our best to copy what we saw in his jump. But we did not have the information we needed, especially about the pole carry and approach mechanics. These are so crucial to the execution of Petrov's technique that I don't believe anyone not following his form in the first few steps of the run can be considered accomplished at this model.

What about vaulters today. They obviously have all or most of the information needed to attempt to execute the Petrov model, so why do so few follow it? Maybe because when they learned, it was before that information was available? Do you think that in 10 years, the majority of Elite vaulters will be following Petrov.

I started vaulting in 1993 and finished college in 2001, and never once heard the name Petrov. Most of the elite vaulters to day probably started around the same time as this, so they may have not even known or at least been knowledgable on the model until they were well into their carreer. Because of the internet and websites like this one, we might see more and more people vaulting like Bubka and may see more and more getting close to the world record. Thought?

[jam354]

That first paragraph was from Tim. I havn't figured out the quote box yet.

[KirkB]

Is Tommy Skipper a good elite vaulter to discuss re the Petrov Model?

Rick Baggett ... a strong advocate of the Petrov Model ... coached him to 18-3 in HS, so I thought he must have been pure Petrov. But in looking at his 19-0 jump, and his 5.66 and 5.82 at the 2005 Husky Classic, he's not.

High pole carry? Yes, although it's not really as high as Petrov recommends. But in looking at the angle of the pole as he accelerates over the first half of his run, he has a very pronounced forwards lean (which is good, I guess), and his pole is at almost the same angle. So although it may be a little low by Petrov standards, it appears to be what's comfortable and what works for him.

Free takeoff? Nope! The pole is bending before takeoff. He does, however, have a very GOOD forwards lean on takeoff, which is something you don't usually see from someone that loads the pole before takeoff. I think this body posture bodes him well in the next phase of the vault. He's not under at all, from what I can see, so he wouldn't bend the pole before takeoff without his good forwards lean. But is his takeoff not free by intent? In both vids, he bends the pole about a frame before he leaves the ground.

Elastic stretch to the C, with chest forwards and trail leg backwards? Yes! He bends his trail leg knee a little too much (post-C) to suit me, but other than that, it's better than most vaulters that pre-load the pole. And there's no visible bottom arm blocking, unlike a classic tuck/shooter.

Strong trail leg swing? Yes, except he seems to tuck immediately after he passes the chord ... maybe even a frame before that. I wouldn't say he's non-Petrov on this vault element, just because it's not perfect. But for that matter, you probably won't find ANY 19-0 vaulters that don't have a strong trail leg ... even tuck/shooters have to have good trail leg swings ... you won't clear 19-0 without that!

Continuous chain on the upswing to inversion and extension? No! This is where Skipper appears to deviate from Petrov the most. For some reason, he tucks and pauses. Obviously non-Petrov, unless my eyes are failing me.

So I score Skipper a 3 out of 6 on my "Petrov Compliance Scale".

Here's his 19-0 vid ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2HUOvZE8Pk

... and here's his 5.66 vid ... http://www.polevaultpower.com/media/video/skipper566.MOV

... and here's his 5.82 attempt ... http://www.polevaultpower.com/media/video/skipper582.MOV

His 5.82 attempt was essentially the same style as his 5.66 clearance, but I did notice a couple minor flaws ...

1. He dropped his lead leg (more than usual), whereas in his 5.66 clearance, he didn't (as much).
2. He throws his head back as he's rocking back and extending. So much so, that his head isn't in alignment with his spine. I don't think this is a good idea, as it's not "natural" ... and it doesn't help him to drive his body straight up. I can't see how he can be as aware of his body position whilst his head is arched back like that. To me, that's just a bad habit ... it adds nothing to his vault.

But again ... minor flaws ... and getting off-topic.

So back on topic ... is Skipper an example of a vaulter that's been trained the Petrov way, yet has ... for whatever reason ... deviated towards a tuck/shoot vaulter? Or has he ALWAYS vaulted with his current technique?

It would be interesting to view his 18-3 in HS, but I can't find that vid anywhere. Is it published anywhere? I thought it would be interesting to compare his HS technique to his current technique, to see if there's any differences in his technique over the past 5-6 years or not.

Like Jam, I wonder what his INTENT is when he's pre-loading the pole and when he's tuck/shooting?

Kirk

[jam354]

This is an off topic question, but something I always wondered. While watching Skipper's jumps and noticing the flaws pointed out by Kirk, I also noticed that Skipper is still going straight off the top of the pole. My question is if Skipper executed a perfect Petrov jump on that exact pole under those exact conditions, would he have jumped much higher, or would fixing the flaws simply allow him to get on a longer, heavier pole which would lead to higher bars? In other words, would he have blown through that pole?

[KirkB]

While watching Skipper's jumps and noticing the flaws pointed out by Kirk ...

Remember that they're only flaws if (a) his intent is to be pure Petrov; and (b) he's tried but is unable to correct them.

If his intent is to load the pole before takeoff, and to tuck/shoot, then I don't consider them flaws. I would then consider him to be following the Drive Model rather than the Petrov Model. This is an important distinction.

There's also the possiblity of an apparent "flaw" actually being a "style" that still conforms to the Petrov Model. I think lead-knee-droppers are in that category. However, Skipper's pre-loading of the pole and his tuck/shoot deviate too far away from pure Petrov to be classified as just a difference in vaulting style.

Since he's cleared 19-0 with his technique, my best guess is that he's INTENTionally vaulting this way.

Remember that the purpose of this thread (according to Jam's initial post) is not to argue which model is best, but rather, to try to understand the intent (maybe even the pysche?) of American vaulters that don't comply with the Petrov Model ... and why they purposely don't "switch" or "transform" their technique over to the Petrov Model ... considering the apparent overwhelming evidence of the superiority of the Petrov Model (e.g. Bubka and Isi).

I have the same questions as Jam, as I truly don't understand their rationale. I'm not saying that their rationale is "misguided" or "incorrect" ... I'm just saying that I don't understand it.

Kirk

[ACvault]

To the original question: Why have American vaulters not attempted to implement the Petrov model? I have a few thoughts.

1) How many elite coaches are actually available to successfully teach the Petrov model?

2) Some athletes may not want to run the risk during the peak of their career of changing technique and sacrificing prize money. A successful instance of this is mentioned in T. Mack's book. The book mentions how in 2003 Mack implemented some technical changes and ran the risk of losing a Nike stipend. I believe his SB that year was 5.75, but he accomplished his call of staying top ten in the world rankings and thus kept his stipend. The rest is history.

3) Finally, there will always be those who absolutely refuse the Petrov model.