Non-Petrovers

[altius]

"Also, I thought differences or flaws can be considered style." Deans running and his pole carry immediately indicate that he was not attempting to use the Petrov model - I suspect he just tried to run fast and take off. I hope to find out when I work with him this summer!!!

So flaws can be considered part of an athletes 'style' only when they are in a technical model that meets the majority of the requirements of the Petrov Bubka model -most critically the free take off but also including the objective of putting energy into the pole throughout the vault - and especially covering the pole in time to catch and work with the straightening pole.


"Markov had a pretty pronounced tuck but was in the video for the Petrov Model. I realize it was to emphasize the free takeoff" GOOD.

Dimitri was coached to use the Petrov Bubka model BUT he had a major fault in the use of the left arm at plant -he extended it forward too far. So when the pole hit him -even with his free take off - the impact shook the right leg loose and it dropped for a moment -he pulled it back up fast but the momentarily dropped leg slowed his rotation so - like Toby -the only way he could get back was to begin a tuck -this cost him energy into the pole. Despite this he still never managed to cover the pole effectively (although his 6/05 in Edmonton was not bad) and this - along with an injured foot - cost him a good shot at the WR. Pity, because he is a lovely man.

[VTechVaulter]

I dont know of any high level vaulters that jump just like the petrov model.

I would say lukyanenko does a lot of it... but drops the lead knee
Walker is petrov chest drive, but run is not as structured, and tucks
Hooker non petrov take off, petrov top end
Mesnil.. nope
Lavanielle - nope
Miles - nope

Guys id say are really close
Lukyanenko as previously mentioned.
steven lewis (GBR) still has some top end work but take off and swing are beautiful
Straub. Little guy, gripping high, taking off out, long swing no tuck. Maybe more left arm than is considered classically petrov.

Now im not trying to criticize any of these vaulters. Im just stating whether I feel they line up with the petrov model

[Carolina21]

Can anyone name (and show vid) of an American elite vaulter (5.80+, let's say ... or heck, maybe even 5.60+ or 5.70+) that's closer to the Petrov Model than Starkey or Stevenson?

We attempt it at Rice....

I don't fall under the Elite (5.80) category, but I think we are getting close...

This is after one year, hopefully by the end of this year a few of the areas lacking will be fixed (Pole drop for one):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyCTomtEYYA

Even though I know most will argue Colwick is not true Petrov, we work to apply as much as we can to his vault, and it is working very well.... ala the 5.72 this last weekend.

FYI,

Lead knee-drop is not something Petrov views as necessarily bad....., or rather its very low on list of things you need to do to jump high (good news for me)
In fact, I don't think it stops you from loading the pole at all, not after watching Colwick jump for 2 years.

[jam354]

That makes sense.

So let's say that when you see Starkey, he says that he tries to use the Petrov model but found that he can run a lot faster and achieve a better takeoff running as he does. What would your response be? Please know I'm not "testing" you, I am actually interested in what your response would be. The reason that is many times in coaching, you can be 100% behind a technical aspect in any given event, and then you run into an athlete that naturally does it slighly different with great success and it is always a "gut check" to make them take 5 steps back hoping they will eventually go 2 steps foward.

Obviously, you can always refer to Bubka as the model, however, if Starkey ran the way he did, he did it for a reason and I'm sure he experimented with his pole run a lot during his career. Which leads back to my original question, in your experience, what is an elite vaulters response to a major flaw in their vault? Technical adjustments at that level are so minor that I can't imagine how they would respond to a critique of their vault that if they changed it could give them the world record.

I'm sure they all know how their vault fits in to the model debate, and it is surprising that so few elite vaulters follow the lead of the world record holder.

[vault3rb0y]

Exactly.... the reasons are what matter. To an untrained eye (and i by no means and calling your eye untrained), a vaulter could look to be following a lot of the principles that petrov teaches. More importantly are the positions and actions in the vault they take compared to WHY they hit/take them. Maybe toby and others sacrifice some take off angle for extra swing ability, and in doing so HAVE to tuck a little in order to be in a position to recieve the energy before the pole reaches vertical. The order of importance of certain actions in the vault comes into play when comparing someones technique to "petrov" technique, and we won't know that about anyone until we ask them. I think that the petrov model is a very specific model that requires years of patience and training to execute properly, and quite frankly, very few athletes and coaches understand this, so they adopt similiar but not identical models with most of the same basic premise.

[KirkB]

To my way of thinking, it sounds a little too arbitrary to say that certain vaulters are or aren't following the Petrov Model. This post is an attempt to ask for clarification.

First, let's clarify that it's the Petrov Model, not the Bubka Model. Isi is Petrov's latest instance of his model. So it follows then that if Isi does something different than Bubka, then that would merely be a style variant (or a flaw), rather than something non-Petrov, would it not?

And heaven forbid, if Bubka was to have a style or flaw that Petrov didn't agree with, would we say that he doesn't conform to the Petrov Model?

Who's to say that Isi isn't a "better" instance of the model than Bubka was? And is there any tolerances permissable due to the physical characteristics of males vs. females? I haven't done this, but I'm betting that if we compare Bubka against Isi frame by frame, we'll find some differences that can presumably be called either style variants or flaws. Is anyone aware of any of these, or can we confidently say that Isi vaults "exactly" like Bubka? Or that they BOTH follow the Petrov Model "exactly"? She certainly does't fly off the top of the pole like he does. Is this just a matter of speed and strength, or is it more than that?

Now on to what constitutes a style difference or a flaw ...

I consider the characteristics of the Petrov Model to be:
1. The high pole carry.
2. The free takeoff.
3. Driving the chest forwards, without blocking out the bottom arm.
4. Long, powerful trail leg swing, with either a lead knee that's held up, or one that drops and then swings up with the trail leg.
5. No rockback or tuck. Instead, the upswing melds into the extension, without any hesitation as the hips rise above the shoulders.
6. The continuous chain, which covers all characteristics 1-5.

These 6 check-points may vary slightly depending on your interpretation, but I would think that you're not following the Petrov Model if you ignore any one of these.

Said a different way, I think if you qualify on 5 out of 6 of these, but aren't even TRYING to follow the 6th characteristic ... or aren't even CLOSE to doing it, then I would think that you're not "pure Petrov".

So how does Starkey score on this? I thought 6 out of 6. Unlike Altius, I don't see why an inferior pole carry or a less-than-perfect upswing or extension disqualifies him from being pure Petrov. To me, Starkey's pole carry is just a flaw.

Do the tolerances vary by "eliteness"? That is, if Liz Parnov's technique isn't quite as close to the Petrov Model as Starkey's do we cut her some slack because we KNOW that her father is STRIVING for her to follow the Petrov Model, even tho she's still unable to do it any better than Starkey?

Besides sex, does AGE matter? Or is the model age and sex agnostic?

Does it make a difference what Starkey's INTENT is? (I don't think it should. I think you should be able to identify the model by observing vid of a vault ... not by interviewing the athlete. He's either going thru the right motions or he's not.)

Altius, you can see that I have a lot of questions. I'm not expecting you to be the sole person to answer them, but since you co-wrote BTB2, and have spoken with Petrov perhaps more than any other English coach/author, I hope you'll chime in with your seasoned opinion ... as usual.

And I hope others will chime in with their opinions as well. I don't intend to get into a two-way debate with Altius over this. I just want to understand what constitues the Petrov Model and what doesn't. And yes, I've read the appropriate pages of BTB2 about styles and flaws, but I'm still confused.

Kirk

[altius]

""since you co-wrote BTB2"" --

I wrote BTB - John did the excellent drawings and wrote the gymnastics chapter - so I take full responsibility for all the errors you find in the rest of the book.
However I have expressed my opinion on this topic - all I will add is that if Dean had not changed his run and pole carry after a month or so with Vitali i suspect he would have been moved on!! That is how important that aspect of his technical model is to him!

[jam354]

I am still a little confused too. Kirk, you're point about Parnov is key to the clarification. Similar to Markov, when we know they are intending to follow the Petrov model, then it is just a flaw. However, when we see flaws in vaulters where we don't know their intent, then they are non-petrov. That is why I think Starkey' intent is important. I think we could learn a lot if we find that many elite vaulters are attempting the Petrov model, but can't pull it off for some reason or another.(Not that 5.80 meters is not pulling it off, but you get my point) If men and women spend their adult lives with coaches attempting the Petrov model and still come up short, maybe they're missing something. I suspect that something is not learning the model from the man himself at a young age as Bubka did. I'm not sure what Isi did, but I know the youth athletic system over there is much more involved than our high school system

[charlie]

Kirk is dead on!! When I used Dean as an example, I used his 19'4 world championship example and video doesn't lie. There is not any difference from the actual take-off-knee drive-left arm-chest forward-PRESS UP to keep the pole running and COINTINUOUS up and off the end with LIFT-All these things have to be done early to catch the tremendous explosion off the end. BKB is a tremendous teaching tool that i highly recomend, but the part where the video has some young male vaulters that they say weigh 140 and jump on 180 poles , but get very little lift off the end tells me they block so far that the pole has straightend up ---so therefore they are way LATE . On those big of poles ,if they were using the petrof model, they would be getting a BIG shot up off the end -way out in front of the bar,. Again , it takes alot of guts to do that!! Coach Charlie. PS 50 years of passion the polevault, and hopefully 50 more!!

[altius]

Charlie - I think you should take another look at the video of Tom and Chris -or take look at the photos of them and three other young athletes on pages 248/249 in BTB2. In both video and book it is ABSOLUTELY clear that their bottom hands have been driven back over their heads!!! Clearly they could not have blocked out!!

Then with regard to their differential -ie difference between grip height and bar. They are both on 15' poles. Tom a 15/180 and Chris a 15/185 - but fifteen feet poles. Look at where they are gripping - both around 4.25m effective if you look carefully. Tom clears 16'5 and Chris just misses 16'10 - how can you say they get no lift???? If by that you mean they do not have a good differential??? I suspect that many of the 5'6 youngsters on this site would be pretty happy with those differentials no matter how high they were jumping! Take a look at Lauren Eley on page 249 - no one one would accuse her of blocking out!!!! Quite the reverse> Or Wendy Young on page 250 jumping 4.40m? Sorry old son you have let your bias get in the way of your observation skills. When you do look at these images I would appreciate a retraction - because I have used those kids as evidence of what youngsters can do in moving towards- not mastering -the Petrov Model. While you are at it take a look at the unloaded poles at take off.

OK - I will let you into the fact that I have been deliberately stirring the pot re Dean - in part because I believe that if he had got it ALL right he was another athlete who could have broken the world record. However I have seen a lot of evidence here and elsewhere that many folk seem to think that the vault begins at take off or perhaps when the athlete starts to plant the pole. THIS IS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE PETROV METHOD . If you look at those elements - especially after take off = in the 97 vault Dean IS close to the Petrov model at take off and through the early phase of the whip swing.

HOWEVER -and this is the point I wanted to make. Petrov states that the pole vault begins with the first step -and that every step is important. On that basis at that point, Dean was not remotely a Petrov vaulter -compare his run with that of Bubka in the very first clip of the BTB dvd. The latter runs exceptionally tall, hips high and forward with the bottom hand under the pole so it is supported by the skeletal system not the muscles. . He runs 'in front of himself' - compare this with Dean who runs behind himself. If you do not understand that statement -the pole vault begins with the first step - even in regard to the way the bottom hand position at that point impacts the planting action - you have not really studied Petrov.

Here it is worth emphasising that there is no reason why any athlete cannot master everything Bubka did - UNTIL the moment he left the ground - then it gets a bit more difficult. All it takes is a sound understanding of his method and thousands of repetitions - which could of course be done in the time often wasted in the weight room!!!!!

However I also suspect that Dean did not realise the absolute importance of covering the pole as fast as possible so in the end he did not get on top of it early enough and slides past it. On the evidence I believe he was trying to be a petrovite - but did not have the entire picture. Pity, because he was a great athlete - and I have coached enough vaulters to have immense respect for someone who jumped as high as he did for a bronze medal in the most important of his life - in competition with two of the greatest vaulters in history, Tarasov ( another with the potential to have broken the record) and Bubka.

So I am with you part of the way Charlie but please do me a favour -revisit the images of my young athletes and come back and tell me that you were wrong!!! Or post the images on pvp so that readers can see the evidence for themselves. Hopefully many can simply relook at their books or dvds!!!!

[charlie]

The point I have been trying to make is that the 2 vaulters you are refering to were Late getting off the pole, and that is why they don't get the very EARLY pop up off the end. I think there plant is fine, but they wait too late to cover the pole and they loose lift on that big of a pole!!! There is no question that there efficincey is outstanding, but i Will stand by my opinion that ANY vaulter that does my method or petrof's and jumps on that big of pole will get blown up off the end. I'm not responding to change ANYONES way of coaching!The very picture of your altius sign in shows what I am trying to relate to everybody. Bubka has completely LEFT the pole out in front of the bar EARLY and , Yes he got blown off the end !!! Coach Charlie

[altius]

As my good friend Baggett always says WADDEVER. You keep talking about being 'blown off the top' but in the end what matters is the differential between grip height and bar. So tell me - what should young athletes like this be aiming for as a differential? And Charlie, since you feel that your methods are as good as - or indeed replicate Petrov's, I would love to see film of some of your athletes of the same age and performance level! The proof is always in the pudding.

Oh and by the way I am definitely trying to get coaches and athletes to change their methods. The first BTB was written in response to the death of three young American vaulters and the second because it was clear the first was not good enough - maybe it isnt good enough either!