Pole Pushing: Petrov Perfected?

[BritDawg]

I also meant to mention that I am definitely able to achieve a free take off while pushing the pole. It is possible!

[KirkB]

Or maybe it's still alive and well, but it's run its course on PVP, and there's not much more to add this year?

Saying theres not much to be added would be once a technique is compleately disected and there is no more to learn about it.

I was only asking why there hasn't been much discussion. With you and BritDawg as practical examples of the success of this technique, I think that's reason enough to revive this topic. I was only referring to the lull over the last couple years, compared to when Harvey first popularized it.

VP, I must say, I'm totally impressed with how you've learned this new technique in no time flat, and have not only had the confidence in it to use it in a meet, but to come so close to your PR ... I'm TOTALLY IMPRESSED! Show us your vids!

And BritDawg, can you point us to any vids of yourself? I'd like to see you using the pole push in action!

Kirk

[BritDawg]

I'm still trying to get a hold of the video of my 4.01 jump last weekend, but I'll post it when I get it. My coach (LoneStar) has video of one of my 4.00m jumps from Texas Relays 5 years ago, so I'll see if I can get that posted!

[powerplant42]

These are my final comments on this topic on this board... For real... I have little more to add.

1. If you all watch the Petrov speech INTENTLY, you will realize why you can't have 'his' free take-off... Sure, of course you can take off 'free', but not like you can with a carry... The role of the bottom arm is SO important before take-off.

2. You will not be able to consistently grip in the same spot... period.

3. When you do run into poorly installed boxes or whatever, you'll be in big trouble if you can't carry the pole.

4. I have no empirical data to back this up, but I would guess that if you learned to carry the pole correctly (using the drop to speed you up), you would not notice a substantial (or maybe even any) increase in speed.

EDIT: (SOMEHOW, I forgot this) 5. If it's all about the running motion with the arms at plant (as in the Petrov speech), then exactly HOW does a push foster this? In the bottom arm? Sure... But what about the TOP arm!? Which is more important there?

ANOTHER edit (DONE after this): 6. If you drive your bottom arm up into the pole at take-off, then are you not at risk for a blocking type action EVERY vault?

IMHO, you should NOT push the pole (under almost all circumstances).

[rainbowgirl28]

2. You will not be able to consistently grip in the same spot... period.

You have never tried this technique, you don't know that. I never had trouble gripping in the same spot. It doesn't appear that BritDawg, VaultPurple, Tye Harvey, etc have had that problem either. My coach was always worried about that too, but it came very naturally to me, and when I have taught this technique to others they naturally gripped the right spot.

3. When you do run into poorly installed boxes or whatever, you'll be in big trouble if you can't carry the pole.

That's just not an issue at 99%+ of facilities anymore. Especially for college athletes.

4. I have no empirical data to back this up, but I would guess that if you learned to carry the pole correctly (using the drop to speed you up), you would not notice a substantial (or maybe even any) increase in speed.

You're just guessing... I think most people can run faster pushing the pole, AND they are less likely to hesitate at takeoff because there is less to think about. The drawback is that you lose out slightly on the benefits that a free falling pole can provide in terms of upward momentum or whatever. But for the average vaulter, carrying their maximum speed into takeoff is a much bigger weaker link.

Tye ran through the speed trap at Earl's carrying the pole and pushing the pole and he was faster pushing it.

[KirkB]

PP, PP, PP ...

1. If you all watch the Petrov speech INTENTLY, you will realize ...

Pole vaulting isn't just about watching speeches and videos. At some point, you need to get out into the real world and EXPERIENCE what it feels like to vault "the Petrov way" ... or any other way for that matter. Yes, I realize that you're injured right now, so you can't. I do feel for your plight. However, as I've said before, your credibility will improve when you talk about things that you've actually EXPERIENCED rather than just read about or heard or saw.

2. You will not be able to consistently grip in the same spot... period.

I thought this might be a problem too, so I suggested earlier in this thread that you place a strip of tape on the pole as a target for your bottom hand to grab. However, remember that ... like you ... I too have not tried the pole push technique.

BritDawg just finished telling us that it isn't as important to grab at the same spot each time as it is to use the impulse of your bottom arm driving up during your plant IN A NATURAL MOTION.

I buy that, as I consider her 5 years or more of experience with this technique as far more valuable than the lack of ANY experience that you and I have re this. I don't understand why you can't accept the opinions of people with the expertise. You seem to be so blinded by believing Petrov that you refuse to consider anyone else's expert opinion. That doesn't help us learn more about the merits of the pole pushing technique. It's "cup half empty" thinking. And YES, I think BritDawg has more expertise than Petrov on this topic!

3. When you do run into poorly installed boxes or whatever, you'll be in big trouble if you can't carry the pole.

Becca, BritDawg, and many others on the old pole push threads (e.g. LoneStar and others, I think) have mentioned time and time again that this has never ... or hardly ever (once, I think LoneStar said) been a problem. That's good enough for me. THEY'RE the experts ... not us!

4. I have no empirical data to back this up, but I would guess that if you learned to carry the pole correctly (using the drop to speed you up), you would not notice a substantial (or maybe even any) increase in speed.

IMHO, you should NOT push the pole (under almost all circumstances).

PP, as usual, the problem that you have in having anyone believe your opinion on this is exactly as you said ... you have "no data to back this up", and ... "I would guess that if ...". YOU'RE JUST GUESSING! On the other hand, VaultPurple and BritDawg have PERSONALLY experienced this technique, so they have far more credibility than you about this.'

Kirk

[KirkB]

RG posted just before I posted, so I didn't see her reply before I posted. I see that she had almost my same comments on this topic.

I wonder why that would be?

Kirk

[powerplant42]

A question... and that is all... Are you so sure that I haven't tried this (more than once or twice of course)?

[VaultPurple]

A question... and that is all... Are you so sure that I haven't tried this (more than once or twice of course)?

Not sure what ur saying here

But my guess is that you are saying how do they know that you have never tried the technique more than once or twice. In that case that you accualy have, great tell me how it went. But Im guessing that you have never really put time in learning how to do it right, and straight pole pole pushing is not the same thing.



But question for BritDawg... Have you ever had any problmes with having your top hand too low when you are close to the plant and hitting back of box because the pole angle was too low?

And as far as hand grip being inconsistent? I am yet to have a problme with this and accualy find it is easier to have a closer hand grip with a better swing. Since Petrov method was accual derived from the technique of American straight polers who slit their top hand up so they could swing faster. Pushing seems to take out the problme that a close hand grip gives when running with the pole, instability while carying. Now im not say plant and put both hands touching or anything, just that this may open oppertunity to have slightly closer hand grip for a better swing.


Im hoping to get a few videos up from first meet pole pushing, but I left my camera on the bus, so I have to drive to tour company tomorrow and hope it is still there. In vids I go through a lot of poles, but technique off top is not perfect because I was a little cross bar shy as I had never jumped a bar before the meet and entry height was 14in over my hand grip, just looked so high.

[KirkB]

... it is easier to have a closer hand grip with a better swing? Since Petrov method was accually derived from the technique of American straight polers who slid their top hand up so they could swing faster?

Steel polers didn't slide their bottom hand up for a faster swing. It was mostly so that the impact of the pole hitting the box could be absorbed by BOTH shoulders. It was quite an impact ... even for me in Jr. High ... so I can just imagine the impact at 15-0+. And yes ... it was a "better" swing with both hands together, but not necessarily "faster". Again, it was really to balance your body weight across both arms. Steel vaulting was already a muscle-man's event, so planting and swinging with mostly one hand would have been quite difficult ... if not impossible ... particularly for younger/weaker vaulters. Remember that the pole didn't bend, so it was easier to BALANCE your body as you swung.

... Pushing seems to take out the problem that a close hand grip gives when running with the pole, instability while carrying. Now i'm not saying plant and put both hands touching or anything, just that this may open opportunity to have slightly closer hand grip for a better swing.

VP, you're correct to an extent. The distance you hold your hands apart during a "regular side carry" or even a "high carry" is dictated by what's comfortable during your run, plus what's optimal during and after the plant. Since the pole push eliminates the grip issues of holding the pole in the air, you only need to worry about what's optimal during and after the plant. So yes, you can have a SLIGHTLY narrower grip ... maybe.

Just remember though, that once you start swinging, you need to have your hands roughly shoulder-width apart. This can vary a bit, but if it's too narrow, you're not going to have good balance during your swing.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Tye ran through the speed trap at Earl's carrying the pole and pushing the pole and he was faster pushing it.

I posted Tye's speed trap data to this thread on Friday (one page back) ...

Harvey ran 9.26 m/s carrying the pole; 9.74 m/s sliding it; and 9.93 m/s running without a pole ...

The numbers may only be accurate to a single decimal place. So then it's 9.3 m/s carrying; 9.7 m/s sliding; and 9.9 m/s running without a pole. This is a 4.3% improvement (5.2% if both decimal places are significant) by sliding rather than carryingy! So about 4-5%

Now THAT'S real data!

Kirk

[VaultPurple]

Ok my new videos are up as soon as they are approved, so dont have link yet.

I still think im a little bar shy because I jump so much better with a bungie. At this meet I was basicaly trying to see how many poles I could go through in the warm up and got up to my largest competition pole but had to hold really low 12'6 on the 14' 155 when I usualy hold about 13'3 with that one. I was a little under because I was just running really fast and was pumped up. I was pretty happy with my performance and plan on trying to up my hand grip in practice this week.

take a crack at the vids.