I Need Input!

[KirkB]

What's the program you use to slow it down frame-by-frame?

Search for "Moyea".

[jojovaulter]

No worries Kirk - the way I see it, its nothing compared to the advice i'm getting back

here it is on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqLRQ1onLN0

I've been reading up a lot on that forum you told me about - pressing with the bottom arm - i never knew how much of an issue and hot debate it was. Very interesting stuff though, and its gotten a lot of ideas flowing. I just hope I can make the transition to a petrovian style vault relatively quickly...I don't have much time left this season.

Any description on what muscles to use, where the pressure is, and how to apply force through only the top hand while keeping my trail leg back and maintaining an upright "C" (and not getting wacked in the face by the pole) will really help me.

My plan at the moment is to start from a 3 step and keep straight pole-ing and sand vaulting while moving my hand grip up and my run back until the pole starts bending. Atleast this way i know i won't keep blocking. Any better ideas on how I can make the transition?

thanks Kirk!

oh and altius, I'm starting on those plant drills tomorrow

[altius]

Suggest you get the BTB dvd from Sean Brown at Neovault -you will see a group of young athletes using the left arm correctly - oh and Bubka et al!

[KirkB]

Joey, surprisingly, even the YouTube vid failed to download. I'm going to check with the vendor (Moyea) and put in a bug report. Unfortunately, this usually takes awhile, so in the meantime, I'll just have to use the vids as is (no frame-by-frame).

I'll provide some further comments on your vaults - re your replies - tonight.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Jojo, you have a lot of potential, and you sound willing to change (improve) your technique to reach your potential, but the biggest problem you will face is that you have 9 years of "technique" ingrained in your brain and in your body. That's a lot! You can't just start over from scratch, as you want to continue to make steady progress thru your college career.

... I was taught to press the pole strongly up, and so I would block out my bottom arm to keep the pole away from me. However, the only way to swing was to bend my bottom arm ...

It sounds like you discovered first-hand the "Achilles Heel" of the Drive Model. TOO MUCH PRESSURE WITH THE BOTTOM ARM KILLS YOUR SWING!

I don't understand how to apply force to the pole to keep my body upright and get the pole bending.

You may not have a very good understanding of the Laws of Physics as applied to the PV. There's many other threads where we've discussed this in the last few months (search for "bottom arm press" and other related key words). Basically, once your takeoff foot leaves the ground, your momentum from your run and jump adds energy to the pole; some energy is lost (energy leakage that's absorbed as wasted muscle action), and what's left over is what propels you during your swing. By pressing hard with the bottom arm, you'll put A BIT more energy into the pole, but you'll kill your swing ... as you discovered. It's a bad tradeoff.

You also shouldn't be striving to "stay upright" by pushing with your bottom arm. That's the wrong intent. Instead, you need to jump up and into the pole at an angle that will retain this good forward lean (good body posture) after takeoff. If you read my comments re Feofanova then you now understand the importance of good body posture after takeoff ... up to and including in the C position.

I think my shoulders and arms should be more elastic ...

Yes, but think "tight elastic" and not "loose elastic". Keeping the body tight ... from head to toe ... on takeoff and beyond ... especially when the pole hits the box ... is essential to minimize energy loss. That's a "tight elastic" body. If your body is too "loose", then the impact of the pole hitting the box is just going to be absorbed into inefficient muscle actions ... energy leakage.

Recently I have been studying some elite vaults and noticing (1) their bottom arm bends at takeoff and (2) their bottom arm straightens as they swing (pretty much the opposite of what I do). ... Are they "rowing"? or is their swinging trail leg causing this? or is it something else?

Which vaulters are you trying to model your vault after? This will be a good reference point for us to discuss. By describing those elites that bend their bottom arm at takeoff and supposedly "straighten it as they swing", you're describing Petrovers.

Don't be fooled by thinking they're straightening their bottom arm by intent. They’re not … it's just that their holding onto the pole, so as the pole bends out of the way of their bottom arm, their arm naturally follows. This is the opposite of what you're thinking. The bend is occurring because of the force applied into the pole from the TOP ARM … and ONLY the top arm (well, OK, maybe a little thru the bottom arm … depending on particular vault STYLES).

Depending on which elite vaulter you're talking about, the Petrovers aren't rowing. They're swinging their trail leg in unison with their entire body ... going from a backwards C to sort of a forwards C ... thru the Whip position (when the body is straight under the pole, aligned somewhat with the chord). A ROW would be more of a muscling action. That's not it. What you're seeing (assuming Petrovers) is a natural SWINGING action, of which the arms play only one role … and the torso and leg actions play just as important roles … the entire torso and legs are part of this swinging action.

Another reason I think I am missing this part (at least I think this is related) is because once I initially bend the pole at the plant, I don't really put any more force into the pole for the rest of the vault. In vaults when I try to swing hard or fast I end up throwing my head back and pulling my body towards my hands causing my legs to curl into a tuck - there is no swing or whip or pushing of the pole because I don't know how to initiate it and where or how to apply the force.

The only additional force you need to put into the pole after takeoff is in the DOWNSWING and in the EXTENSION. Don’t throw your head back, and don’t tuck. Just SWING! Downswing, then upswing! Then EXTEND.

And of course on these "tuck" vaults the pole always ends up unbending before I am inverted.

Ahh! The OTHER Achilles Heel of the Drive Model! The idea of the fast, early swing is not only to apply MORE energy into the pole, but to also set you up for a quick INVERSION ... then an EXTENSION in unison with the unbending of the pole. The timing of this for a Petrover ... swinging instead of tucking ... is so much easier and more efficient (IMHO).

The weird thing is my best vaults (like the video) are when I am very relaxed and don't try to do anything. The problem with this strategy is I end up doing a slow partial tuck that is not explosive, and I use a very small amount of strength. This tells me that I am not using my full potential.

I'm guessing that by "relaxed" you mean when you don't purposely apply much force into the pole with the bottom arm. If that's the case, I'm not at all surprised. That's exactly how it should happen!

The problem with this strategy is I end up doing a slow partial tuck that is not explosive, and I use a very small amount of strength. This tells me that I am not using my full potential.

I dunno. I'm not sure what you mean by "slow partial tuck that's not explosive". How would a "fast full tuck" be more explosive? I think our words might be misleading here ... I’m losing your drift. You'll have to explain what you mean by using different words.

And why tuck at all? Petrovers don’t tuck!

I am always trying to improve my takeoff - I try to raise up, and I try to think about "chasing the pole to vertical". And I think it works out ok though I want to jump up more at takeoff and have more leg separation so I can take off farther out … But I basically hit the positions that I would like, though as I said before my thought is my arms are not doing what they should be.

This part sounds good.

And is it possible that you don't penetrate because you panic when you feel the pole sinking, so you don't complete your vault like you should? Do you actually bail on these attempts, or what happens?

... When the pole feels like it is sinking I end up bailing because it feels as though I won't make it on to the pit. After the initial takeoff, I am on the pole trying to push the pole beyond the pit but the pole looses all forward momentum as I near the box. Once I get to this point the pole straightens to either above the box or a little in front of it. If I tried to get upside down to finish the vault the way I normally do, by breaking my bottom arm, I don't think I would make it to the pad.

Perhaps this is your problem …

… I am on the pole trying to push the pole beyond the pit …

Why “push the pole”? Why not just swing?

Seriously, maybe you just need to move to a heavier pole when this happens?

I never thought about this. I thought for the most part if a pole is too soft then I should land deep in the pit.

Yes, that's NORMALLY what happens. But if you panic and bail, you're not whipping your trail leg, so maybe you're not applying as much TOTAL energy into the vaulter/pole system? I'm just conjecturing here ... without seeing your attempts when the pole sinks, it's hard to understand what happens after that.

The key is to make GRADUAL changes, so that each little change doesn't feel that radical ... it needs to feel comfortable ... so that you can slowly adjust to the new sensations. If you change too much all at once, I think you're going to bail a lot and have some digressions. Slow, incremental technical improvements!

Kirk

[jojovaulter]

Hey all of you with great input so far,

These last few days I've been practicing changing some things around in my vault. Bring my grip closer, carry my pole higher, jump at takeoff, don't block with my bottom arm, swing instead of pull... Kind of a lot. And I have been doing A LOT reading on these forums - the pole vault manifesto, blocking with the bottom arm, and more. I had no idea there was so much controversy over the bottom arm! Anyways...

I had a meet today and got to try out my "new" vault. It was my first day actually swinging on a bending pole without blocking and breaking so I am pretty happy! the pole is soft (15' 165) and the height was low (14'7") but I think it's coming along

I got some video and I would really like to know how I am doing and what you all think I should fix/focus on. My step is around 11', so I know that I've got to keep working on moving that back. and I know that my extension at the end is poor as I just flag off of the pole (but if my reading has taught me anything, the better take off I have the better extension I can get), But what do you guys think?

http://polevaultvideos.fliggo.com/video/g5DAHeCy

[KirkB]

Bring my grip closer, carry my pole higher, jump at takeoff, don't block with my bottom arm, swing instead of pull... Kind of a lot. ... I had a meet today and got to try out my "new" vault. It was my first day actually swinging on a bending pole without blocking and breaking so I am pretty happy! ... My step is around 11', so I know that I've got to keep working on moving that back. and I know that my extension at the end is poor as I just flag off of the pole ...

Jojo, I'm totally impressed and amazed. I was quite concerned that after 9 years of vaulting, you might have an uphill battle in converting to Petrov. But seeing is believing! I realize you're still well below your PR, but I wouldn't worry about that. What you've proven in today's vid is that you have the talent and the will-power to adjust your technique! At this rate, you're going to be FLYING over your PR in no-time!

I honestly thought you'd have to suffer for quite awhile before you caught on. At least, that's been the difficulty with other vaulters in similar circumstances. Maybe this just goes to show you that if you're determined to change your technique, then YOU CAN! It's all in your ATTITUDE and INTENT.

... but if my reading has taught me anything, the better take off I have the better extension I can get

Yes. Not only the takeoff, but also the body posture in the C and the DOWNSWING. The bottom half of your vault will DEFINITELY improve the top half SUBSTANTIALLY, so don't even worry about your extension or flagging out til you get the bottom half going smoothly.

Keep working on getting your takeoff more out; jumping into a good C (good forward lean); no bottom arm pressure (how you do it in the vid is fine, I think); long, QUICK trail leg; and don't pull your trail leg in too early (if at all). The idea is that all of this bottom half stuff should give your the momentum to PASS THRU the "flat back" position WITHOUT PAUSING. You do all this, and you'll be FLYING off the top of your pole!

Kirk

[jojovaulter]

Glad to hear you liked it. I'll keep working on it. Thanks!