Pole Pushing: Petrov Perfected?

[KirkB]

VP, glad you were able to post on Fliggo. http://polevaultvideos.fliggo.com/video/r2d7q6gP

I tried to download this vid with Moyea. I need to download it so that I can convert it into a QuickTime movie, which I can then watch frame-by-frame. Unfortunately, the download fails, and I don't know why. I don't expect you to be able to fix this at all, I'm just letting you know that I tried.

You have a nice bottom arm pump during your run, and good speed on takeoff. I think those are the pros of this pole-pushing technique, and you seem to have caught onto them immediately.

Since you're such a quick study (for pole-pushing, at least), I'm still mystified why you haven't picked up the high pole carry technique as easily?

I suspect that you're just not comfortable running without pumping or bobbing your bottom arm or shoulder. I don't know how you can fix that, other than the hints I mentioned previously.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Kirk you are not factoring in the mental side of it. The movements needed to plant are simpler. Not only is it easier to learn, but it is easier to be confident with it.

I carried the pole for years and years, and one a whim one windy day decided to try pushing it. Two weeks later I had my first lifetime PR in 3 years, and from only 5 lefts.

[VaultPurple]

Becca hit the nail on the head with that one. When i have no problme with lowering the pole and running fast, its lowering the pole running fast and hitting a free take off... SO MANY THINGS TO THINK ABOUT!

To give a breif Idea of what was going through my head when i was pushing.. I put two shoes about 6 inches apart where i wanted to take off from, glanced down at them the whole time I was running, ran as fast as i could and jumped like I was long jumping from the shoes. I didnt watch the pole tip or the box and worry about how far I was from matt. In my mind if i was at the shoes I was good to go. So I basicaly turned it into long jump. RUN, JUMP... wait im still going up, how bout i swing and pole vault now!

ps. Becca, did you grip the pole with bottom arm a step out or as you were planting the pole?

[powerplant42]

You may very well jump better immediately, but I think you'll hit a pretty harsh plateau after a short amount of time if you don't learn to carry the pole.

Like I mentioned earlier, the pole can't be driven up AND FORWARD like with a regular planting action (the top hand comes BACK before driving the pole up pre take-off, then of course it must go forward). The take-off positioning will never be as good either... You can't perform the free take-off without a 'carry plant'... Have you seen Petrov's speech.

-Brick Wall

[VaultPurple]

Like I mentioned earlier, the pole can't be driven up AND FORWARD like with a regular planting action (the top hand comes BACK before driving the pole up pre take-off, then of course it must go forward).

Still have no clue what your saying here. Why would i want to push pole forward, Im running forward, so there is my forward motion, then I jump up.

I Just want clarification on this argument, I tried to PM you 3 days ago but you still have not responded

The take-off positioning will never be as good either... You can't perform the free take-off without a 'carry plant'... Have you seen Petrov's speech.

-Brick Wall

You cant perform a free take off without a 'carry plant'? What on earth are you talking about. A free take off just means the pole does not bend while you are still on the ground, look at my video.. it does not even start to bend until I am 3 inches off of the ground, I call that FREE.

[powerplant42]

You cant perform a free take off without a 'carry plant'? What on earth are you talking about. A free take off just means the pole does not bend while you are still on the ground, look at my video.. it does not even start to bend until I am 3 inches off of the ground, I call that FREE.

You have not seen the speech then.

I'm sorry that I haven't PM'd you back yet, I have a LOT of other things going on in my inbox (and life) at the moment. I'll get to you tomorrow or Wednesday for sure.

[VaultPurple]

You have not seen the speech then.

if you have time to respond to every post on pvp, then why cant you just tell me what you mean. Why will pushing keep me from pushing up and forward for your so called free take off?

[KirkB]

The day just wouldn't be complete with at least one disagreement between PP and myself ...

PP, I wouldn't be too hasty to discount the pole push technique. [sigh]

Tye Harvey jumped 18-9 that way ... in competition ... at Reno ... so it can't be all THAT bad!

Here's a link where we discussed this before: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=15996&p=115833&hilit=pole+push+harvey#p115833 ... and this link leads to several other threads where this topic has been discussed, dating back to at least 2005. You could also search for "harvey pole push" to find other mentions of it.

VP, my suggestion is for you to try to contact Tye Harvey and see if he's willing to give you any insight into this technique. No harm in asking. If I were you, I would be just as excited as you are about a technique that seemed to give you a technical break-thru of sorts THE FIRST TIME YOU TRIED IT! Don't be too anxious to abandon it just yet ... you've barely started experimenting with it! At the very least, it might help you IN PRACTICE to improve other vault parts that have been troublesome for you.

Then you can revert to the high pole carry.

Kirk

[VaultPurple]

I talked to Tye and he had some pretty good advice. As far as running he said the biggest thing to watch out with is the urge to try to run like a sprinter comming out of the blocks and to run tall. He also made a good note on most peoples concern with the pole tip bounching and missing the box. He said that he accualy learned to like the bounce and controll it. As long as the pole tip is bounced up in the air then it is not causing any friction with the runway and has less resistance and that with time it is easy to learn how to control the bounce and keep it in the middle of the runway. To keep the pole from bouncing and missing the box he accualy grabs the pole a step out with his left hand to steady the bounce (unlike i did in my video where i just grabed it as i jumped).

[rainbowgirl28]

ps. Becca, did you grip the pole with bottom arm a step out or as you were planting the pole?

I don't know... http://www.polevaultpower.com/media/vid ... te11-0.mov you tell me

[rainbowgirl28]

I talked to Tye and he had some pretty good advice. As far as running he said the biggest thing to watch out with is the urge to try to run like a sprinter comming out of the blocks and to run tall. He also made a good note on most peoples concern with the pole tip bounching and missing the box. He said that he accualy learned to like the bounce and controll it. As long as the pole tip is bounced up in the air then it is not causing any friction with the runway and has less resistance and that with time it is easy to learn how to control the bounce and keep it in the middle of the runway. To keep the pole from bouncing and missing the box he accualy grabs the pole a step out with his left hand to steady the bounce (unlike i did in my video where i just grabed it as i jumped).

I never really felt the pole bounce (but I was of course running at much lower speeds than Tye). I would however sometimes cock the wrist holding the pole slightly forward (like toward the pole tip) to put more pressure between the pole tip and the ground and give me more control over it.

[VTechVaulter]

This brings up an interesting physics point.... yes im a big nerd i know. but physics is quite useful

anyway.

imagine your on a skateboard on top of a big long table or something flat. If you were moving really slow, as you reached the end of the table you would fall almost straight down. now if you were moving really fast, you would cover some ground after the edge of the table (im assuming you dont jump or push down or anything here, since its impossible to put much force into the pole tip from far enogh away)., before you landed again on the ground.

what does this mean?

if your running fast enough, the pole tip can not drop to the bottom of the box before it hits the back of the box. i dont know exactly how fast you would need to be running for this to happen, but my educated guess would be that most elite level vaulters would have a problem with this. Certainly guys like Buller, and Bubka, and Duplantis would have run into this. Granted most of us will never be that fast, but something to consider

I do believe that push-planting can have some merit in drills and with beginners, and depending on your time frame that may work fine. But to ultimately be as good as you can possibly be, i would have to stand by the drop carry.




oh and if anyone says the pole tip problem could be fixed by adding weight to the end of the pole.. i will send you a very harsh message further detailing the physics of why