Coach needs more help with Mid Mark

[jam354]

I've posted on here before about using the mid mark chart. I've progressed with 2 vaulters to a 5 step runway holding at 10'6" with a mid of 35'. It's worked incredibly well. They both have jumped 9'6" with that grip in practice. Their standards are all the way back. The issue I've run into is the transition to higher grip with a longer runway. They are using an 11' 120 from 5, so to raise they're grip anymore, I thought it was a good idea to move to a 12' 120lb pole which is the next pole available to us.(no 12' 110) Bare with me. I decided that it was about time to move to 6 lefts. I had them hold at 10'10" and run back from a 36' mid.(Another question, is that a good idea to run back from the mid?) They both ran well and ran way under. Here's is where my problem started. I wanted them to hold at the same grip(being gradual) but move back their step. However, now all of the sudden the chart wasn't making sense. So I tried moving their mid back to 37 and their grip to 11'1". They took about 2 terrible jumps and I stopped practice because I knew I was screwing them up.

This has been working for my vaulter, so I want to keep using it. I'm still having trouble figuring out how to progress to a longer run. When moving from 5 lefts to 6 lefts, they are obviously going to run a lot faster, but I don't want to just jump up a ft on a grip right away. I'd rather move the run, then the grip. I'm not sure if I'm making sense to anyone, but if I am, could you please help me. If you could try to give me the scenario on how to progress. Hopefully I've given enough info. Thanks a lot.

[rainbowgirl28]

I've posted on here before about using the mid mark chart. I've progressed with 2 vaulters to a 5 step runway holding at 10'6" with a mid of 35'. It's worked incredibly well. They both have jumped 9'6" with that grip in practice. Their standards are all the way back. The issue I've run into is the transition to higher grip with a longer runway. They are using an 11' 120 from 5, so to raise they're grip anymore, I thought it was a good idea to move to a 12' 120lb pole which is the next pole available to us.(no 12' 110) Bare with me. I decided that it was about time to move to 6 lefts. I had them hold at 10'10" and run back from a 36' mid.(Another question, is that a good idea to run back from the mid?) They both ran well and ran way under. Here's is where my problem started. I wanted them to hold at the same grip(being gradual) but move back their step. However, now all of the sudden the chart wasn't making sense. So I tried moving their mid back to 37 and their grip to 11'1". They took about 2 terrible jumps and I stopped practice because I knew I was screwing them up.

This has been working for my vaulter, so I want to keep using it. I'm still having trouble figuring out how to progress to a longer run. When moving from 5 lefts to 6 lefts, they are obviously going to run a lot faster, but I don't want to just jump up a ft on a grip right away. I'd rather move the run, then the grip. I'm not sure if I'm making sense to anyone, but if I am, could you please help me. If you could try to give me the scenario on how to progress. Hopefully I've given enough info. Thanks a lot.

dj is a big fan of running back from the mid. Is that how you got their 5 left mark?

When you said they were way under, were they under on the mid or the takeoff or both?

What brand are the 11' and 12' poles and what are the flex numbers?

Explain more about how their jumps looked terrible? I think you were on the right track with the 36' mid, but I wouldn't back them up any further unless they have a good takeoff and are rotating the pole quickly from there.

[jam354]

I did run their 5 step back from the mid.

When they ran under, they were on at the mid. It looked like it was just too close. This is why I moved them back because I figured they were running fast enough with good form from 6 lefts that they needed their mid farther back.

They use Pacer Mystics, don't know the flexes right now.

I say terrible jumps as in their runways were terrible which caused a terrible jump. They were stretching and getting their plant up late.

[dj]

hye

sorry i don't have time to go into detail...

but how much did the grip go up??? and did you go on the track and practice the full run with a "MID" one foot further out.. then two feet..

from a 5 left to a 6 left is usually only one foot and one hand grip different... i had a girl jump 14.. her 6 left was 40/41 feet her 7 left was 42/43 and here 8 was 44..... she could grip one grip (4") higher than the "chart" and still "get her feet down" explode off the ground and explode of the top of the pole because of a very fast swing...

the "MID" should stay very close to the grip being used.. and it would only be rare for the "MID" to go out more than 2 feet/ 2 grips from one run toi the next...

i have seen the mistake made over and over.. a girl jumps 10 feet with a 36/37 MID .. and runs well.. the coach moves her back to a longer run.. doesn’t understand the MID concept.. she only moved her grip one hand but hits 40 feet on the “MID” and can’t go up.. actually got hurt..

moving the MID one foot means 2 inches per step for 6.. move it 3 feet and she had to add.. (overstride) 6” per step to be “ON”..

as soon as she stretches… she will continue and stretch under.. double whammy… low long steps and under……… land in the box……

bye

dj

tps try and keep the grip to “MID” fairly close.. and only grip as high as the vauter can moce the pole to vertical when they are running correctly…

[jam354]

I have been doing the runs on the track, just not for 6 lefts. I was doing them for 7 left which was their full run all winter, so as you can see, I'm trying to go back and work on basics.

What I suspect is happening in the transition is that they are so comfortable with their 11 ft poles(they know that even if they have a bad takeoff they will get in) that they have just comformed their runs to meet the mid mark. In other words, they are running with good form, but not REALLY running. Then I move to a longer pole to move their grip up, move their run back and since they aren't sure of themselves even though there is very little difference in terms of grip, they now run normally fast and are way under. This is probably exactly why I shoud be doing more on the track.

[rainbowgirl28]

What year were the poles made and what are their flex numbers? It's normally a good 20lb jump to go from an 11'120 to a 12'120, but if one of the poles was made before 2003 and the other wasn't, it could be an even bigger jump in poles. If you post the flex numbers, I can tell you which spans they were flexed under.

Don't underestimate how big of a jump in poles that is. For some girls it's no problem, for others, it's the same as asking a guy to go from a 14'160 to a 15'160. My girls would use an 11'130 and 11'6 130 before trying to touch a 12'120.

[jam354]

Agreed, it definately is a big jump. They were definately made after 2003, I'll get the flex numbers today. Unfortunately, at this moment, that is the next available pole. However, before I started using the mid marks, I would have my vaulters warm up with 5 left jumps before moving to their long run. One of the vaulters was holding between 11'1" and 11'3" and getting in from 5 lefts and getting in, but she was way inside, really bending the pole and not jumping at take-off and thus not getting fully inverted. This is why I went to the mid-mark chart for help. So when I asked her to move to that pole, I didn't think it was too much of a jump because she knows she can jump on it. After bailing on one jump that looked great at takeoff, I asked her what happened and she said "she got scared". I told her there was no need to be scared because she's jumped on that pole 100 times. She then responded with, "yeah, but I'm getting as lot higer now." So I know we're close.

Also, I don't know if this matters, but this is not their first progression through our pole series. Both vaulters have held at grips up to 12'3" successfully, just not with great form. We have been stuck in the 9'6" range for a while and thought we needed to go back to basics. Don't know if that's relevent to mid-mark/pole progression.

[dj]

good morning..

have your vaulters been using "MIDS" from 36 to 41 feet?

36' = 10'10" grip and 9'6" vault..

12-4 grip = 41 foot "MID" and 12' vault....

recieved this email and though it might add to this thread...

continue to monitor.. and try to keep them running correctly and fast...

stretching and stepping under is the biggest issue..

Dave,

I have been using your chart with my vaulters this year and I had a couple of questions for you.

Do you move them back on the grip and runway when they are getting deep in the pit, or do you move them back on the runway when they are consistently under their take-off, or is it a combination of the two?

Your chart really has made a science of the take-off for me, I'm just having a little trouble with the "feel" of when to move them back.

Any help you can give, I'd sure appreciate.

Thanks!

SV

good morning

depth into the pit is usually proportionate to the speed on the runway.. speed comes with a stride length factor.. the faster you run the longer the stride.. the faster you run the higher you can hold on the pole... the numbers on the chart represent the "average" speed (with a pole in your hands) needed to move the corresponding grip ti vertical... or penetration...

if they are "hitting" there marks, (grip to "MID" marched fairly closely, and going deep) you would logical move up one grip and back a foot at the "MID"... you would use the same process.. but be very aware of "stretching" or chopping.. stretching and stepping "under' is a sure sign that the "MID" is to far out or the vaulters isn't really running correctly and/or carrying the pole correctly..

i usually test any changes to the "MID" on the track.. with one or two pole runs... or on a runway set up next to the vault pit..

hope an answer is in there somewhere

dj

ps becca is correct i usually run back from the "MID"...... i sometimes have had vaulters run back during competition if their run was off... the officails usually don't stop you from running back from 40 feet out and usually think you are just "warming" up...

[dj]

hey

i re-read your post...

use the same grip the first time you move them back.. encourage, what i call "piston"(chop) action, running strides, over the last 6 steps... make sure the ball of the foot is hitting "under" the belly button.. and the ball of the foot never goes out in front of the knee cap on the drive, free leg.. phase..


dj

[jam354]

Thanks for the help everyone. It's definately a work in progress. I think my issues lie in the pole transitions and getting confused with the grip-mid comparison. I used to have my vaulters run back to get their steps. If I was moving from a 5 left to 6 left run, I would always keep the same grip until they got accustomed to the run. So where would the mid be for a vaulter who was at 10'6" from 5, then moved to 6 holding the same. I know it can't be 35 because they are now running too fast. This is where I get confused and maybe I'm just taking it too literally. Hypothetically, where would a 19 ft vaulters mid be if they were holding at 10'6"? Obviously it couldn't be 35ft. My vaulters are jumping great from 5 holding at 10'6", mid 35. They've jumped 9'6" which I've been told is pretty efficient. I try to move them back and I become very unsure. If I move to 6 lefts holding at 10'6", shoudld I make their mid 35'8"? Does that make sense?

Also, the poles we have available past an 11'120 are an 11'140, 12'110, 12'120. Let me know what you think the best course of action would be. I thought maybe skipping 6 and going to a 7 left run might work to make up for the gap in poles.

DJ, When they were gripping 12' and above, it was before I started using mid marks. They were getting in though. I posted a video a while ago of one of them holding around 11'9". She was not swinging to inversion, thus the institution of mid marks.

[dj]

Good morning

DJ, When they were gripping 12' and above, it was before I started using mid marks. They were getting in though. I posted a video a while ago of one of them holding around 11'9". She was not swinging to inversion, thus the institution of mid marks.

Sorry this doesn’t seem to be working well for you.. and it seems to be taking up too much of your coaching time… and your athletes may feel you have focused on it too much causing some resistance and frustration.

First the “MID” is a coaches check mark for consistency. When they were gripping 12 and not swinging to vertical it is generally from a lack of pole speed.. the “MID” will only help you determine a good correlation between running speed and grip.

When they were gripping 12 would have been a very good time to drop the grip one hand.. make sure you are on a softer and not a bigger pole.. AND put a mark (only for you the coach) at 40 just to see how they are “matching” up.

I have a feeling they were hitting around 42.. stretching and running slower even thought they felt like if they moved in on the run they would get “jacked” at the plant…

Do this.. go to the track.. put down a strip of tape/chalk across a lane. Turn in one direction and run back.. what ever number of strides you want for the approach from start to “MID”…

Have them start at that mark and hit the “MID” and plant “naturally” 6 steps on the other side of the "MID" mark. Catch the takeoff foot.

Do this 2/3 times for and average…

Measure this run and move it to the runway.. move it in 6 inches because there wasn’t a box on the track.

Then they should have their “natural” run and speed and no reason to get frustrated or resist.

Simplify the “MID” check point..

And yes going to 7 or 8 should be easy if you keep them consistent with the “MID” check point.

The biggest down fall of a longer run is the athlete gets “fired” up........ runs fast (a good thing) and hits outside the “MID” by two feet (a bad thing).. and then has to stretch and LOSE the speed built up... AND steps under and gets ripped, losing confidence in themselves and the coach..

I suggest you back the run up and let them “bring it” just don’t let them hit too far out and stretch..

If they feel like “coach if I run fast and run under I’ll get hurt!”.. then tell them to keep a “tall” posture and “chop” the steps.. instead of actually chopping and slowing down the increased frequency will give them the power and speed you were trying to get them to use in the first place……… and as long as they hit a good "MID" they want stretch at the end..

“Run fast hold high and use a big stick…”

Just be smart about how you do it..

dj

[jam354]

DJ,

Just wanted to let you know I took your advice today and measured their step on the track using your method and it worked great. They actually had a litlle trouble because they felt they were running so quickly after the mid. They were!! When they took off, it looked extremely powerful and dynamic. I think it will take some getting used to just because we've been doing short runs for over a month. Both vaulters cleared 9'6" again holding at 10'6" from 5, so if they can get that type of efficiency on a higher grip, we will have a fun season. Thanks for the help.