Dropping the lead knee - time for a retrospective?

[dj]

Good morning Vtech…

I agree with what you have said about Mark.. and I have seen other vaulters do this which I consider totally different in what I see Hooker, you and Lukyanenko do.

PaulVaulter…Is it just coincidence or are the top vaulters techniques linked to the colour of their pole?

I don’t think Paulvaulter was indicating the poles of the top vaulters are white and pink.. just the opposite.. I think Hooker and Lukyanenko (and you) are jumping on the same pole?

I know this may sound confusing but I haven’t found the “natural knee drop” to be a product of the white and pink pole.. I did say Earl dropped his knee but I think he was on Skypoles and then Pacers and his “drop’ was more pronounced on poles that had patterns that matched with the grip and sail piece dimensions more like the poles Hooker, Lukyanenko and you are using, and Dave Roberts drop was much more subtle and on a George Moore Pacer that had a longer “short side”(back in those days the short side was lengthened slightly to make a stronger flex unless and until they had to go to a bigger mandrel or more wraps) which gave my “mind” a reason to think it, the knee drop, was more a reaction to the physics of moving the pole (those design characteristics) to vertical.

Dj.. Their technique is virtually identical.. and I would say they are more than likely on the same pole with the same proportionate sail pieces.

Lukyanenko drops the right knee slightly more than Hooker… their swing is almost “dead on” except hooker pulls in (muscles) a little with the right/top arm… which is what I think made him go to the right.. Lukyanenko was nice .. “down the middle” and finished
well, just short on penetration.

same pole...

Vtech..i think i stated this before in another post but ill re-iterate. it seems some people use the dropped lead knee as a way to stall the swing. i know every know and then wehn im really under and get yanked, my lead knee drops as a way to keep me moving into the pit to make up for the losses at take off. Hooker i also think drops the lead knee because he tends to be under and gets hit a bit at the box (not trying to say i can make hooker better or anything, im just saying thats what I see). Although this theory is shot down by Pavlov/Lukyanenko (they might as well be the same jumper, style is so similar), who both have free take offs, good arm work/ chest work, and still drop the lead knee...

This kind of sums it up… seems the knee drop is not a bad thing and actually could be a plus… but it also seems it may be best if it is “natural” and souldn't have or need conscious though…

dj

[vaultman18]

1. in the video of mark johnson above, i wanted to make on thing clear. Mark Johnsons technique is completely different. It is not a dropped lead knee. A dropped lead knee would imply the leg came up or started to and fell. He takes off with his right leg already behind him. If you look at Beccas pictures from the 2004 ncaa championships, you will see a few pictures of him, where hes right leg is actually sitting ontop of his left leg behind him.. "hooked" onto his left leg actually. This isn't super relevant, i just wanted to clarify it for those who haven't seen him much in person.

Kirk specifically asked about swinging both legs. The video was a response to

Do you think that with a bit (or a lot!) of practice, you could actually WHIP both legs simultaneously like that - in a competitive vault?

Just wanted to clarify why the video was posted.

[achtungpv]

I think a perfect example of whipping both legs simultaneously would be Jason Colwick. He does it rather effectively and seems able to accelerate the swing to a degree.

[dougb]

Great photo!

The pole is just beginning to bend and he is about a foot off the ground. Does he even raise his right knee?

I think that Kirk is right about a retrospective.

Doug Balcomb
Pv Coach, Colfax HS

[KirkB]

Hold the phone!

My reason for starting this thread was really to ponder whether Hooker's technique (and Lukyanenko's, for that matter) is BETTER than the classic technique of keeping the lead knee up.

Even tho I was the one to bring it up, I wasn't at all serious about the double-leg swing as nicely demonstrated by Pat Manson (somewhat haphazardly - but he demo'd it without any focussed training), or Jason Colwick (surprisingly impressive!).

I can't view the image that Achtung posted of Colwick. Right now, I see the red "X" and the word "Image", instead of the image. When I post still images, I do it thru the "Upload attachment" dialog under this edit window. Is that how you uploaded it, Achtung? Dougb's comment of "Great photo!" suggest that he saw the image, yet I can't see it.

The vid of Colwick shows his run and his swing, but there's some people blocking the view of his plant and takeoff (There oughta be a law! ).

As soon as Hooker breaks the WR (and it looks like he will), we'll all be nodding our heads in agreement that he's found a way to put more energy into the pole, and release it back out efficiently on the recoil. That's why I think that Hooker's technique is the one for us to study the most.

It won't hurt though, to study Colwick's technique a bit. I'm quite skeptical on how the hell he can put enough energy into the pole on takeoff if he's not driving his lead knee forwards, to COMPLETE his takeoff. Was he a highbar specialist in a former life?

Perhaps the next step is to take a look at Colwick's takeoff in slo-mo (if there's any good vid available), and talk about the pros and cons of whether there's sufficient lead knee drive there for his technique to be viable. Quite frankly, I'm both impressed and skeptical.

As impressive as Colwick's technique might be, he's only done 5.40, right? It's still well under Hooker's. So on that basis alone, we should concentrate more on Hooker's 6.06, shouldn't we?

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Colwick just cleared 5.61, a week after making 5.60.
http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... AID=662757

[KirkB]

OK, hold the phone once again! Disregard all the skepticism that I had in my previous post!

Jason Colwick's on fire! 5.40 on Jan 31, then 5.60 on Feb 6, then 5.61 on Feb 14, 2009!

I see his pic (above) now - must have been my firewall acting up. Talk about a REVERSE-C!!! Notice how nicely his bottom arm collapses? He lets his top arm do all the work!

I found a vid of his 5.60 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--DXSx0w7k. This shows his entire vault, with a clear view of his plant and takeoff.

I had him mixed up with Mark Johnson - who did 5.40! I didn't realize that there were TWO vaulters with this same two-legged swing technique! Johnson apparently jumped in 2004. But since we hadn't heard of him recently, it sounded like he peaked his career best at that height.

On the other hand, Colwick's last 2 jumps - in the last 2 weeks - have been "up there" with Hooker's performances for the last few weeks! Here's his bio: http://riceowls.cstv.com/sports/m-track/mtt/colwick_jason00.html

At age 20, Hooker's PR was 5.35, and in 2004 at age 21, Hooker's PR was 5.65. Source: http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/country=AUS/athcode=174653/index.html. Give Colwick another 6 years (when he's Hooker's age), and who knows, he just might be in the same stratosphere!

I noticed in his vid that - starting with his penultimate - Colwick kinda "falls" into his takeoff - perhaps his way of loading the pole before takeoff? I'm not sure (hard to freeze-frame youtube vids), but it doesn't look like a free takeoff. But if he's under, it's not by much. He has a very nice forwards lean on takeoff. But I would also like to point out that his "punching up" of both arms isn't in unison with the takeoff - it's way before that!

DJ, what do you make of his takeoff? It's not how we'd drive our lead leg to dunk a BB (your good example of a good lead-knee drive). Instead, he's leading with his chest. Just another way to do it, but [apparently] just as effective?

And no, he doesn't have any lead knee drive at all. This is the part that I was skeptical of. Yet he does pass thru a very nice C position, and then his swing is VERY different than the classic PV swing, but not much different than a typical two-legged highbar swing. In his bio, it says that he ...

... has an extensive background in gymnastics.

This shouldn't be the least bit surprising! With a swing like that, it had to come from somewhere!

At this point, my thoughts are that DESPITE a poor takeoff/lead-knee-drive, he makes up for it with his innovative swing technique. I don't like his plant/takeoff, but if he can do 5.61 with a poor takeoff, just think what he might do once he fixes that!

I'm also not sure how fast he's running, but just think what a guy with Hooker's speed might do with the Colwood/Johnson style two-legged technique!

There's no question that he's loading the pole with one helluva lot of energy! And due to his tap swing (Whip), he inverts and extends really nicely - no different (no better or worse) than if he was doing a classic one-legged swing!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Looking at Colwick's 5.60 vid again, I don't know if my eyes are deceiving me or not, but it sure looks like he's bending the pole TWICE!!!

Once on takeoff ... from the force of his run/takeoff ... and again just after he passes the chord ... from the force of his swing!!!

Nice!

Kirk

[KirkB]

This "double-bouncing" idea (aka "resonant pump") sounded vaguely familiar ...

Then I remembered this thread that I started on Oct 29, 2008 ...

http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16280&p=117870&hilit=double+bouncing#p117870

It's all related!

Kirk

[golfdane]

This guy Colwick scares the crap out of me. Looks like he's almost falling into his take-off, and I can't believe he actually jumps this way. But, it seems to work for him.
The picture is extremely impressive and scary at the same time.

As Kirk; if he gets a more efficient take-off, would it be extremely interesting to watch. He has extreme gymnastic ability, and without it, is this technique a dead duck (IMHO).

I think the dropped knee technique pivots around the ability to invert in time for the recoil. Physics predict, that the dropped knee would add anergy to the pole on the expense of rotational speed. If you have enough rotational speed, dropping the knee will affect the jump in a positive way. Bringing it back up, Lukyanenko style, adds additional energy into the pole (small contribution) and regains a bit of rotational speed toward inversion.

[baggettpv]

5.60 to 5.80 is not high enough. Follow the model to achieve 6.00 to 6.20

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[achtungpv]

Jason Colwick's on fire! 5.40 on Jan 31, then 5.60 on Feb 6, then 5.61 on Feb 14, 2009!

... has an extensive background in gymnastics.

This shouldn't be the least bit surprising! With a swing like that, it had to come from somewhere!

Kirk

I've been watching Colwick since he was in 9th grade. He's one of the most naturally talented for the sport I've seen. When he was a HS freshman, I saw him walk up to a plain inflexible pull-up bar and do over a dozen giants in a row non-stop and with no warm up. He was jumping 3 feet over his grip on a non-bending Fibersport training pole back then...he did need about 3 feet of clearance to leave a bar up back then though.