Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

[powerplant42]

The physics are nearly identical. The cord is the stiff pole.

It is not a topic for the historical thread... That's what got people headed in the wrong direction... Back before America underachieved for our immense population/GDP advantage. We said, "There's something fundamentally different about these flexible poles..." Petrov got his ideas from watching Warmerdam vault!

Kirk, you made the transition... What do you think about this?

[KirkB]

PP, I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but if you want straight talk, here it is ...

Kirk, you made the transition... What do you think about this?

I didn't really "make the transition". I was a very mediocre HS steel vaulter (10-6 PR) after 6 years of practice and sports days and 3 years of true competition.

But it taught me to jump off the ground on takeoff (not only a "free" takeoff, but a powerful one), and I had to develop a certain amount of strength and coordination to get a pushoff and clear my grip. In hindsight, this was good prep for flexible pole vaulting.

I don't think you should take this to the extreme, PP, and say that the bottom arm action should be identical between stiff and flex vaulting. Once you're no longer sliding your bottom hand up to your top one, all bets are off. (If you're talking about stiff vaulting with no slide, I've never really tried that very seriously - other than simple warmup drills where bottom arm technique wasn't the focus.)

Petrov got his ideas from watching Warmerdam vault!

I think this is an extreme interpretation of where he got his ideas from. Yes, he got SOME ideas from Warmerdam, but didn't we all? Aren't we still?

I like the way BTB2 stresses the similarities between stiff and flex vaulting. It's good to recognize that they're not COMPLETELY different. But let's not extrapolate this position to argue that there's NO differences. All the similarities between the two types of vaulting can be summed up into a single statement ...

"Let's get back to the basics of learning the running, jumping and gymnastic skills of pole vaulting. They're the same on any kind of pole."

The key word in that statement is underlined.

Kirk

[vaultman18]

I don't think you should take this to the extreme, PP, and say that the bottom arm action should be identical between stiff and flex vaulting.

I would bet if agapit were to respond to this he might say.

"Why do anything differently on a bending pole as you would on a stiff pole?"

This is a source of much debate and has been for many years. And the fact that so many great coaches on this very forum disagree about what the vaulter should do makes it that much more interesting.

Basically, when stiff poleing( herein after SP) you are not trying to put any energy into the pole because it won't store any.

I think agapit talks about this on another thread, maybe in the manifesto. That the bamboo vaulters did not try to bend the the pole but it did bend. I think the saying goes "it's not pole bending, it's pole vaulting". I also think we were able to establish earlier that the bottom hand is not needed to bend the pole. But it is needed for control.

[vaultman18]

Someone please answer this question.

If you are hanging on a high bar, can you apply upward force?

[dougb]

Someone please answer this question.

If you are hanging on a high bar, can you apply upward force?

No, but you can bend your arms and pull. Would you want to vaulting

doug

[KirkB]

I would bet if agapit were to respond to this he might say.

"Why do anything differently on a bending pole as you would on a stiff pole?"

This is a source of much debate and has been for many years. And the fact that so many great coaches on this very forum disagree about what the vaulter should do makes it that much more interesting.

VM, I would not oppose your bet ... I'm sure you're right. There's many similarities between stiff and flex pole vaulting:

1. The laws of physics apply equally to both.
2. You must run fast.
3. You must plant the pole in the box - hard.
4. You must jump hard on takeoff - a FREE takeoff. This is optional if you DON'T adhere to the Petrov model. BTW, Dutch Warmerdam had a FREE takeoff.
5. Your lead knee should thrust forwards/upwards vigorously. This is true whether you then drop it or not.
6. There is a double-pendulum action. The pole rotates around its plug, and the athlete rotates around the top hand (which becomes the shoulder girdle). Simultaneously, there's also a trail leg hinge on both (rotating around the hips).
7. You should not push with the bottom arm.
8. Your body core should be "tight" or "stiff" to minimize energy loss when the pole hits the box. But no matter how tight it is, there will always be some energy loss here.
9. You must swing - fast.
10. You must get your hips above your shoulders.
11. You must extend upwards - above the bar.
12. You must pushoff - as hard as you can.
13. You must clear the bar.

But now I will answer your question about what's different ...

In stiff pole vaulting, ...

14. You must grip lower than you would on a flex pole. Otherwise, you'll stall out.
15. You will grip the pole with your hands wider apart during the pole carry. It's easier to balance the weight of the pole this way (during your runup).
16. You must slide the bottom hand up to the top hand during the plant.
17. You must shrug/hunch both shoulders in preparation for the jolt that you'll get when your pole hits the box.
18. You must absorb the shock of this jolt with BOTH shoulders - approximately 50% of the weight on each shoulder. No human is strong enough to absorb it only with the top shoulder - not even Tarzan.
19. You must immediately start swinging - there's absolutely no time to delay the swing. Even the best elite stiff pole vaulters couldn't swing fast enough.
20. You must immediately use BOTH ARMS to initiate and accelerate this swing - the sooner and the stronger the better.
21. You must swing with both legs in an elongated position. Even if you wanted to, you can't hold the lead knee up - the jolt on takeoff is too great.
22. You must rely much more on your strength than on your swing to invert.
23. You must pushoff more vigorously with your arms. Your extension will never be vigorous enough to "fly" off the top of the pole - unless you're gripping very, very low (too low).
24. You should probably jack-knife over the bar, as you won't have the momentum for a "fly-away" bar clearance.

... but in flex pole vaulting ...

25. You can grip much higher. The grip is proportional to the length of the CHORD of the pole, and since the pole flexes, you can grip much higher without stalling.
26. You will carry the pole down the runway with a narrower grip. Because you won't be sliding your bottom hand up, you want a grip that's optimized for the plant/swing - not for the pole carry.
27. You should NOT slide your bottom hand up to your top hand. It complicates the plant, and it puts you in an "awkward" position on the pole - imbalanced and unsafe.
28. You should strive to put as much of the force of the run + takeoff on your top hand/arm/shoulder as is humanly possible. It will be MUCH more than 50%, but [usually] less than 100%. Personally, I strove for 100% and was close to reaching it. You should also strive to APPROACH 100%, keeping safety and physical ability in mind.
29. You should not begin your swing until your takeoff is "finished". This is a controversial point. My personal opinion is that if you swing too early, you won't attain an upright, stretched elastic body posture that sets up a long powerful downswing. The controversy is in defining exacty when your takeoff should be "finished".
30. The swing should be inititated by either (a) the trail leg; (b) the top arm only; or (c) both arms. (Lots of choices, and more controversy here, depending on your style preference.)
31. Your lead leg can either swing long (along with the trail leg), or short (keep it raised) - depending on your style preference. If you're going to drop your lead knee and then swing it back up again, you must time this to be very quick - in unison with the coil/uncoil of the pole. Otherwise, if your timing is late, your swing will finish too late, and your extension will start too late - causing you to flag out.
32. You can rely more on your technique and gymnastic coordination (and less on your strength) to swing to inversion. Just look at the physiques of elite stiff vs. flex vaulters to realize this fact.
33. You will get less of a MUSCULAR pushoff as compared to stiff vaulters, due to the vertical body speed that's already been generated from your vigorous swing/extension. You will have much less time to push off the pole, so your pushoff strength is less emphatic.
34. Your bar clearance style will vary (according to your style preference), and MIGHT be jack-knife, but more than likely won't be. This is mostly because of the wide variance in the styles preceding the bar clearance.
35. You will get a higher "pushoff" (distance between grip and bar height). This is due to the greater efficiencies of flex vaulting - not because of physically pushing off the pole more powerfully with the top hand. This higher pushoff gives you more "airtime". So much more that it introduces (in my opinion only) a new "vault part" - the "fly". In stiff vaulting, there is no "fly" - instead, bar clearance directly follows the pushoff.

I'm sure I've forgotten a few important points.

Conclusion: There's at least 13 things that are SIMILAR between stiff and flex pole vaulting, but at least 22 things that are DIFFERENT.

Of course, I have my personal biases, based on my personal experience and observations. So does everyone! Viva la difference!

Kirk

[KirkB]

If you are hanging on a high bar, can you apply upward force?

Good question, VM! I like your questions/comments!

The answer is yes ...

You cannot do this hanging under the bar. While hanging statically under the bar, your body weight applies a DOWNWARDS force to the bar, equal to your body weight. You can see the amount of this force by observing the sink/sag in the highbar. The more the sag, the more foces is being applied to it.

You can increase this DOWNWARDS force by swinging. During your DOWNSWING (i.e. everything behind the bar uprights), your added force will be greatest. This is for a couple reasons: (a) your body's CoM is getting lower and lower. This adds force (energy) into the highbar; and (b) the hinging of your trail leg (with your hips as the fulcrum) creates additional MOMENTUM during your downswing that adds to this force. During this hinging action, there's actually part of (a) also happening - the weight of your trail leg is moving lower and lower. The lowering of your trail leg is occurring faster than the lowering of the rest of your body (with the hands as the fulcrum point). Thus, the ACCELERATION of the DOWNSWING is the most opportune time to generate more force into the highbar.

Like your body weight being forced down by gravity, these additional downward forces are quite easily recognized by the additional sinking/sagging of the highbar. The more it sags, the more force must have been applied to it from (a) and (b).

So far, I have only talked about downward forces on the highbar. Now - to answer your question VM - what about UPWARD forces?

You will know when you're applying UPWARDS forces to the highbar when it bends UPWARDS. But just a bouncing upwards recoil from the DOWNWARDS forces isn't sufficient to say that an UPWARD force has been applied. To be truly an UPWARD force, the bar must not only bend upwards, but you must HANG ON to it (else you'll "fly" skywards off of it - and the upwards force won't be applied). For elite gymnasts doing giants, this is not so difficult - it happens routinely. Just watch the bar, and realize what forces were applied to cause it to bend UPWARDS.

Now, why is a "bounce" of the bar in the upwards direction not an UPWARDS force? Because it occurs due to the potential energy stored in the bar (when it was bent downwards) - and not due to any UPWARDS force applied by the athlete. On the UPSWING, an equilibrium point will be reached when the downwards and upwards forces are equal. The recoil of the highbar is pushing you up, and gravity is pushing you down. To apply an UPWARDS force, you must pass thru this threshold, and actually feel your hands wanting to fly off the top of the bar. If you release your hands, then no UPWARDS force is applied to the bar (the force remains with your body, which is now in "free-flight" - now fighting only gravity). If you DON'T release your hands, then you're applying an UPWARDS force on the highbar.

VM, I hope that answers your question.

Now, you didn't ask this (I'm sure it was on your mind), but how does this all relate to PV technique? ...

Well, the downwards and upwards forces follow the same laws of physics. Replace the highbar with the pole, and there you have it.

The main difference will be that the pole is not permanently attached to the box. So even if you hang on (after your pushoff), there will be [little or] no UPWARDS force applied to the pole. The best you will get is the pole releasing out of the box as you pushoff. (For vaulters with too much stick'em on their hands, this sometimes happens!) If you fly off the pole with a force equal to the dead weight of the pole as you and the pole fly skywards, then (arguably) this could be called an UPWARDS force. But this upwards force cannot exceed the weight of the pole, because the pole isn't attached to the box.

Remember that a vigorous EXTENSION (straightening of the body) in an UPWARDS direction actually applies a DOWNWARDS force on the pole, and so does the DOWNWARDS pushoff with the arms (particularly the top arm).

But - you might ask - how does understanding all this help me to vault higher? Again, you didn't ask, but I'm sure it was on your mind.

Well - I suggest - even tho you CAN'T apply any (much) force in an UPWARDS direction on the pole, you still want to fly skywards off the pole as high as you possibly can. So it doesn't really matter that you can't apply upwards force or not. You still want to strive to apply as much DOWNWARDS force as you possibly can, so that your body will fly UPWARDS as high as possible.

Really, just use the feel of the highbar bending UPWARDS as your measuring stick when you're wondering whether or not your gymnastic movements are optimizing your upwards thrust. If you really have to hang on tight to keep from literally flying off the top of the highbar, then you know that you're executing the right series of body actions that cause this to happen! This equates to PV much more with the hip-circle-to-handstand drill than with giants.

Whether a force is DOWNWARDS or UPWARDS can be confusing. I hope I've clarified this. And I hope I'm not wrong. [gulp]

VM, did I cover all your questions, or are there more?

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Vaultman is the guy that introduced me (hands on) to the lat pull... He does ask some good questions!

Let me take a different approach on the answer to his question (I think it was rhetorical).

I THINK he might have meant just hanging on the bar (since this is a topic that has mostly to do with take-off/swing). So, pretty obviously, the answer is no (other than negligible forces). However, here's something to think about: if you don't keep your arms locked during most high bar skills, WHAT HAPPENS?

[vaultman18]

Great work Kirk!
I will respond later when I have more time.

I would like to make one thing very clear. If the take-off is not Free then everything else is more reactive than trained. I Think Alan mentioned, that a lot of the off the ground parts are intuitive. I believe he is absolutely correct.

I will say this if you tell a young athlete to push at take-off in my experience (which is limited) they will lock-out. And getting a vaulter to stop locking is extremely difficult IMO.

[powerplant42]

I would like to make one thing very clear. If the take-off is not Free then everything else is more reactive than trained.

Yes! (Unless, of course, you're a MONSTER like Britts... )

So... I think I am going to change my vote... I sort of confused my 'top arm' thread (a little) with this one when I was talking about rigidity... Although, the bottom arm should be tensed (but it does not resist the pole going over the head), I believe that it is 'closer' to 'correct' by leaving out isometric resistance when discussing THIS particular matter (even though you could say it is technically part of the Petrov model).

I will say this if you tell a young athlete to push at take-off in my experience (which is limited) they will lock-out. And getting a vaulter to stop locking is extremely difficult IMO.

Definitely sounds accurate!

[KirkB]

... here's something to think about: if you don't keep your arms locked during most high bar skills, WHAT HAPPENS?

I don't think "locked" is the right word in this context. It implies "locked" as in "locking out your bottom arm" i.e. pushing.

On the highbar, whether you're competing for an Olympic medal, or just doing PV drills, you're usually hanging (in various body positions) with the weight of your body on your arms. This doesn't lock them out. It's just that your elbows are straight because of your body weight.

You don't have to conciously think about locking your arms (or not).

Kirk

[KirkB]

... I will say this if you tell a young athlete to push at take-off in my experience ... they will lock-out. And getting a vaulter to stop locking is extremely difficult IMO.

I agree - on both points. I also think that if instead of "push" you say "pressure" (the isometric pressure choice of the survey), then they will also TRY TO lock out. Really, what's the difference? Not much. You could try to explain that Feofanova's action is a "push" and Walker's is "pressure", but to a young athlete, they're indistinguishable.

Any way you explain it - assuming he doesn't understand the physics of this - he will try to lock out. This can happen if (a) his grip is too wide; (b) his bottom elbow is directly under the pole; or (c) both. (This is a little redundant, because the wider the grip, the more your elbow MUST be directly under the pole.)

This is one reason why I don't think you should even tell a young athlete to put any pressure at all on the pole with his bottom hand. He might take it to the extreme (locking out).

Instead of "push" or "pressure", I like the way Altius explained it ...

... On the original topic -I state again that the bottom arm is not passive! It should be driven up through the pole - but with the arm positioned with the elbow outside the pole so that it cannot resist the force of the hit - and is inevitably driven back over the head. it should not simply collapse. ...

When he says "so that it cannot resist the force of the hit", he's referring to the elbow. The first time I read this, it didn't make sense to me, because I thought he was referring to the pole.

And when he says "It should be driven up through the pole." I at first thought he meant "until the pole bends significantly". In re-reading this, I think he means "for a moment".

More about the "collapse" vs. "drive the bottom arm up through the pole" later. I buy Altius' explanation for young vaulters - just not for elites (yet!).

At the moment, I'm developing some thoughts about this whole bottom arm issue. I'm trying to reconcile Agapit's "pull" (what I referred to as a "lat pull") with all this. I may come around to Altius' way of explaining this for elites - just not yet. Or I might lean towards Agapit's "pull". Right now I'm literally right smack in the middle of these two (don't pull and don't push) in my thinking - based solely on personal experience (rather than theory).

For me, I'm more confident in my opinions when I simply recall how an action felt. It's much harder for me to formulate new theories. Stay tuned.

My quandry is that Altius says "drive UP through the pole" (which is in a "pushing" direction) whereas Agapit says "pull". How can both of these be true? Could it be that Altius is referring only to "young vaulters" and Agapit is referring only to WR contenders? Or is it a question of timing? Could it be that Altius is referring to only the moment of takeoff, and Agapit is referring to the moment AFTER takeoff?

Regarding what the bottom arm should do immediately following takeoff, I think there's at least 3 factors to consider: (a) timing; (b) direction; and (c) duration.

I'll have more about this later. But VM, I think I'll wait for you to reply first.

Kirk