The Role of the Top Arm

[powerplant42]

Yes. We all are aware that the top arm is what bends the pole. We all know that we swing from the top hand. Of course the top hand should be as high as possible at pole-strike.

Should the top arm move forward as the vaulter swings? This is not necessarily referring to rowing... It could though. In any case, is it a good thing, or a bad thing to do and why?

If you are still not clear about the question, I am speaking about intentionally moving the top hand forward after take-off in a wide arc, a 'sweeping' pressure if you will.

The answer is not so clear, is it... I have my thoughts, but I'm curious as to what others have to say about it first.

[KirkB]

Sort of but not really.

I don't think you should key on what your top arm is doing. More than anything else, it should just hang onto the pole - elbow straight, and without any shrugging or hunching of the shoulders.

The focus (Bryde Bend technique - a variant of the Petrov model) should be on your trail leg.

Get that trail leg moving in the right direction (at the right time and at the right speed), and everything else will fall into place - including the top arm.

I'm not saying that you should be passive with your top arm. I'm just saying that your trail leg should initiate your swing, and your top arm will follow - VIGOROUSLY.

Try it on the highbar ... you know the drill!!!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

I'm not saying that you should be passive with your top arm. I'm just saying that your trail leg should initiate your swing, and your top arm will follow - VIGOROUSLY.

Herein lies the confusion. You are right, but you are vague... Many coaches do not understand the role the top arm plays. (We already have one vote for 'as much as possible'!) I will write my hypothesis this weekend when I have a lot of time.

Not only will there be wheat I am hoping... There will be cream.

[powerplant42]

The vaulter runs, plants, and takes off free with a high top arm... Now what?

Pole-strike occurs... The top arm should be braced for impact. The vaulter will naturally begin to swing at this point in time; there is no stopping that if the body is positioned correctly... however only the upper torso for the moment, because the human body is flexible. What does this mean for the top arm in terms of 'sweeping'? If it begins to try to move forward now, while a pre-stretch is in progress, what will happen?

To the 'as much as you can' voters: If the vaulter is strong enough, he/she will do a backflip into the box. Why is this?

First of all, you end the pre-stretch phase prematurely without reaping the full benefit of whipping the trail-leg as fast as possible... Do you do this when swinging on a bar? You're about to hit a big pre-stretch and you push both hands forward to swing better? How does that help the swing?

Secondly, consider Newton's 3rd Law of Motion! For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You 'sweep', and the pole will push you back just as hard.

To the 'a little' voters: I present the same argument just to a lower degree of intensity... If a lot is bad, why is a little any good?

We have no 'not at all' voters. You could definitely say 'not at all', but I think that confusion could come out of THAT as well.

The only two 'sort of, but not really' voters are Kirk and I. I say 'sort of, but not really' because there is an illusion created that the top arm works against the pole because it resists, and as the swing proceeds, the top arm 'closes off'.

Defend your position. What say you?

[fx]

First, let me point out that in the original post you are asking whether the top hand should come forward as the vaulter swings, while in this latest post you are assuming that it interrupts the pre-stretch. These are two different events that occur at different times.
Ok now here's what I think. I consider the free takeoff as well as the pre-stretch to be part of completing the takeoff. Yes, it would be bad to move the hands forward during this time.
After completing the takeoff, this is a different matter. At this time, the vaulter should be constantly trying to add energy to the swing. In my opinion, the best way to do this will be to apply continuous pressure "down the pole," which is the only direction that makes sense to apply pressure, as this is where the pole connects with the ground.
What this looks like will be different depending on where in the swing you are. At the beginning stages of the swing, this will look like you are sweeping the hands forward. Later, it will appear to be the "pull" portion of the pull/turn. In every case, I believe the motivation behind the action is to apply pressure down the pole.

[powerplant42]

Would you do the same thing on a stiff pole?

[fx]

Yes, I would apply pressure down the pole during the swing. It wold look differently, but yes.

[powerplant42]

Along with momentum, the swing moves the pole forward.

How do you negate my points on Newton's 3rd law and the bar?

[fx]

You are correct about Newton's Third Law, as you know. However, as I said, you must apply pressure down the pole. The opposite of down? Yes that's a good direction for your body to be pushed. As I said, it may look as if your arms are sweeping forward, but this is not the intent. What I am uncertain of is whether it is actually possible to apply pressure solely down the pole immediately after takeoff, or if there will be somewhat of a forward component, which would, as you observed, cause a negative backward push.
In terms of the high bar, I'm not sure.

[powerplant42]

It is not the pole itself that matters, it is the cord. After take-off, the cord angle is relatively low...

[KirkB]

... What I am uncertain of is whether it is actually possible to apply pressure solely down the pole immediately after takeoff, or if there will be somewhat of a forward component, which would, as you observed, cause a negative backward push.

You top hand grips the pole - tightly. Your trail leg hinges/swings/whips. This applies pressure DOWN THE POLE - thru the top hand (assuming you're using the bottom arm only for balance), and exactly down the entire chord of the pole. The butt doesn't move against this pressure in the box (of course not - it's a solid box in the ground!), so something else must - like the vaulter and the pole.

You don't actually have to worry about the direction of all these forces. You just hang on, and the laws of physics will figure it out for you - in realtime! (Amazing, eh? ) The longer, harder and faster your trail leg swings, the more pressure is applied thru the top hand, thus the more energy transferred into the pole (because the energy has nowhere else to go).

... In terms of the high bar, I'm not sure.

Same thing. You will notice that the harder your trail leg swings, the more pressure is applied (thru BOTH hands), thus the more the highbar will bend (because its uprights are solidly braced to the floor).

Lest you think that I'm saying that the trail leg does all the work - it doesn't. Rather, the trail leg only INITIATES the swinging action (my opinion only - but based on my personal experience). Then, since every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the top arm does this "sweeping" thing that you're talking about. This is the action of going from the C to the upright I - on whatever apparatus you're on.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

It is the pre-stretch that does this. It happens quite naturally, so there should be no intent to 'sweep', 'row', or anything like that.