Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

[dougb]

Petrov states that while the bottom hand plays a major role in positioning the pole into the box (but) it should not be used to initiate the bend in the pole. The pole should begin to flex as the result of the initial impulse of the body as the foot leaves the ground at take off, but the major bend occurs as the result of the pole being loaded thorugh the top hand.


The egg.

Kirk

You and are real close,

To sum up my position:
The bottom arm should be putting a positive pressure on the pole at take off; not to try to bend the pole but to prevent the hips from swinging faster than the top hand is moving. This is at take off only. An analogy would be a boxing jab, but it's not a perfect analogy. The bottom arm isn't locked neccessarily and may even flex from the load, but it still putting pressure on the pole. As the pole bends the pressure is released to where the vaulter is hanging stairght armed from the pole. The time that it takes for this to happen approaches 0 and so it appears that the arm does not push, but is pulled to extension.
I am not proposing that the left arm stay locked as in a "jogadin" This is only about the bottom arm as the pole is loaded.

To sum my understanding of your position.
Basically the same, except that the top hand loads the pole faster than the hips will tend to swing and therfore no pressure from the bottom arm is needed or is desireable.

I appreciate your patience and help while I have been getting my thoughts together.

Doug, "definetly an obsolete vaulter"

[dougb]

Joebro391

You and I appear to have a generational conflict. What I think of as young and dynamic lady, you see as an 'obsolete/outdated' vaulter.

With that in mind. How about Jenn Stuzinski? Take a look at her vault and her bottom arm and let me know how she does.

http://www.usatf.org/events/2008/VisaCh ... /adidasTC/

Doug, definetly obsolete and oudated

[powerplant42]

Her grip is too wide, so she should not be counted in this argument (I feel).

A wide grip makes for a higher propensity to block and rock... The left arm can't be 'pushed' UP, because it is too far 'out'... Then the swing loses power as a result.

[dougb]

A wide grip makes for a higher propensity to block and rock... The left arm can't be 'pushed' UP, because it is too far 'out'... Then the swing loses power as a result.


Are you saying she is not pushing up?

doug

[altius]

"There is the danger, though, that a beginner will imprint this "push" into their brains, and it will be a bad habit to get out of. I think the earlier they learn proper Petrov technique (no push), the better. I lean towards learning this technique on gym equipment rather than by actual vaulting."

There is no push - just enough pressure on the pole so the athlete can stay behind it early on - look at Lauren Eley but in fact all the young athletes in the book -better still on the dvd and you wil see this is not the case - but we did a great deal of stiff pole jumping where the bottom arm is not in play.

[joebro391]

Calm down, 6P. Feofanova has a very powerful plant/takeoff that's worth studying. As long as you recognize her flaws as well as her strengths, I think it's good to analyze the styles of various vaulters.

Kirk, i understand what you're saying. And i completely agree that Feofanova is an amazing vaulter, but she is still sub-par for THIS DISCUSSION. This discussion is about what produces the BEST RESULTS. Until a mail vaulter can put their hips over 6.40, BUBKA (petrov model) produces the best results. Until a female vaulter can put their hips over 5.10/5.15, Isi (Petrov Model, again) produces the best results.

I'll repeat, there are many AMAZING technicians, that are NOT WR holders, HOWEVER, we're talking about what has, so far, put out the BEST vault. And since Feofanova never put here hips, anywhere near Isi's, I don't understand how Doug can say that she was better than Isi (especially when is has to do with the technical flaws that go against the petrov model.

This is what i keep thinking about kirk; and i've been thinking about this for the past 2/3 days. Remember that coach that PP described, in that thread about the imaginary vaulter?? Remember how the coach kept steering his young athletes, at such an impressionable age, down the wrong vaulting path?? Do you remember what I told you about the Coach at Lynchburg?? That's who I fear doug is and I'm so afraid that he's going to take opportunity, away from youngh athletes that strive to be great, but get taught the wrong thing. And that's why i'm taking this thread so seriously, and trying to get Doug to understand Proper Technique

You and I appear to have a generational conflict. What I think of as young and dynamic lady, you see as an 'obsolete/outdated' vaulter.

With that in mind. How about Jenn Stuzinski? Take a look at her vault and her bottom arm and let me know how she does.

http://www.usatf.org/events/2008/VisaCh ... /adidasTC/

It's hard to tell, from the angle, whether or not she was blocking (if that is what you intended me to notice). What i didn't notice, was a WR getting broken. Isi is still a much better vaulter (technically and physically). Jenn has a lot of potential, but she has to fix a few things. I don't understand why you don't just evaluate Isi, for a base model. I think you should buy B2B2 and read the whole thing, twice. -6P

[powerplant42]

Chillax. dougb is definitely no Smith, and a few of us happen to be in at least partial agreement with him on the point of rigidity (although I'd like to hear more on this idea since I'm not totally sure what he's trying to relay)... Is there something wrong with a strong, braced body, including the arm?

Feafanova had a better take-off than Isinbayeva for a long time, even when she was setting the WR. Just because you hold the WR doesn't mean that you have perfect technique... Bubka didn't plant perfectly according to the Petrov model... There may be men out there that do not have that error, but they definitely can't jump 6.40! There has never been a perfect execution of the Petrov model (or any technical model for that matter), and there never will be, because humans are not perfect. Other people may do something more correctly, and PERHAPS there is something to what Doug is trying to say.

Be the empty cup... An empty cup of Joe...

[joebro391]

In the words of Alan Launder: "all vaulters are under-achievers...except for Bubka"

[powerplant42]

In the words of powerplant42: Bubka was the closest thing to perfection of the Petrov model as has ever existed to this point in time (next to me of course ).

6P, you must keep your mind OPEN! There IS something in seeing what other vaulters do, even if it might not be what Bubka did or Isi does because they were/aren't PERFECT!

[altius]

Amen to that! But I meant it in a positive way!
In fact if you speak to many of the better vaulters - those who are committing themselves to excellence like the guys I spent time with in Reno - Darren Niedermeyer, Mark Hollis and Brian Mondshein -they would all agree that they are presently underachieving.

[KirkB]

... Bubka was the closest thing to perfection of the Petrov model as has ever existed to this point in time ...

Ironically, some say he was "close to perfection" yet apparently he was also an under-achiever. How can you be both?

I've heard several pundits - including Altius and Agapit - say that Bubka was nowhere near perfect either ... that the only reason he didn't clear 6.40 was because he ran out of time.

This was apparently due to his strategy of adding a single centimeter to the WR at a time. At this rate, he would have had to set the WR in 49 more meets before he owned 6.40 indoors and out. Assuming a WR meet every other month (very rough, and very optimistic) it would have taken him 8 more years to reach this pinnacle!

But to get back to the topic of this thread, I think Bubka - when he wasn't UNDER - had very, very good plant/takeoff technique (nice tall, upright C), with very efficient transfer of his momentum into his pole THROUGH HIS TOP HAND.

Watch this vid of his 6.01 jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYaBPDTrVuI&feature=related

Notice how his bottom arm collapses and his hand almost hits his forehead? Do you consider this good or bad?

How does his bottom arm collapsing compare to Feofanova's?

You can't go frame-by-frame (like with Feofanova's QuickTime jump), but the vid's already in slo-mo, so just watch his hips as he passes thru the "flat-back" position. How many frames was he stuck in the flat-back?

Why?

You tell me!

I know the answers to these questions, but I don't want to sound like a broken record!

Kirk

[dougb]

6p wrote: It's hard to tell, from the angle, whether or not she was blocking (if that is what you intended me to notice). What i didn't notice, was a WR getting broken. Isi is still a much better vaulter (technically and physically). Jenn has a lot of potential, but she has to fix a few things. I don't understand why you don't just evaluate Isi, for a base model. I think you should buy B2B2 and read the whole thing, twice. -6P

It is what i wanted you notice. In my opinion she is blocking. She isn't setting a world record, but at the time it was an American record.

As far as considering Yelena Isenbyeva, she is the one I want to be when I grow up, but we are dicussing a very small and specific part of a very complicated set of body/pole movements. And, if i had a vaulter who was setting records I wouldn't change a thing even if i had to take out the fiberglass from their forehead after every meet.

By the way I have b2b2 and have read it, and continue to read it.

You should realize that world records are going to be set by a combination of three talents.(I am leaving out desire) The most important is speed. The momentum availabe to put into the pole (energy into the pole) is going to determine how high your hand hold is. the other second talent is strength. The third is technique which is what we are discussing here.

Feofanaova is 5' 3" tall and weighs ? (not much). Her acheivement should not be deminished.

On a more personal note, I Looked at your latest Meet and was impressed with what I saw. Keep at it.

Doug, Obsolete but maybe not outdated.




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