Trying to fix my plant and takeoff *updated 12/30/08*

[powerplant42]

I am not totally sure about it, but it does seem flat to me.

Something new I noticed was your take-off foot braking... I could not be totally sure if you did it during the practice jump, but you definitely did it during the meet jump. This might be a factor in your (maybe) flat take-off.

How much time have you been spending on the high bar lately? You swing pretty well to the cord, but then it seems as if you begin to pull with the top arm and consequently tuck. (I am actually just starting to get over such a problem myself! This should be an interesting test... Can you do swinging Bubkas on the high bar without pulling? Can you do them at all?) Remember that "the vault becomes a giant swing carried on and on..."

[KirkB]

In #2, your body posture in the "C" is better than in #1. You're not upright enough in #1 - you've already swung too far but your swing should be just beginning - not ending. It's hard to tell why (due to using simple pause/run toggling on YouTube), but whatever you did on #2 you should continue to strive for. This includes taking off a little further out, stretching your top arm up a little higher before the pole hits, driving the chest thru a little further (to keep the hips a little further back), etc.

One "root cause" might be the slight hesitation you have in dropping the pole, and leaning back during the plant. If you look closely, you can see that you lean back during your plant - especially as your bring your top hand "through" the shoulder. It's actually not THAT bad, but it would be better if you would lean a little bit FORWARD thru the plant, and run INTO the takeoff. This is fairly generic advice, so I apologize if I'm not being specific enough.

I won't touch the issue of "to push or not to push" that PP and Wally touched on [sigh], simply because I think my views on this are already well known, and they should know better than to give the bad advice that they gave. I know that you're an avid PVP poster, so you'll take what they say about that with a grain of salt.

One area that they're both correct on - but that you didn't ask for advice on - is re finishing your inversion ...

I'd like to mention a few things about that, because that may very well be the weakest link in your chain right now. It appears to me that (especially in #2) you have the momentum to swing completely upside down, and then extend straight upwards. Instead, you flag out. I don't quite understand quite why.

Especially in #2, you have sufficient forwards momentum to land well into the pit. But when you get to the "flat back" point (search for "flat back kirk" and you'll see my other references to this coined term), you STOP swinging/inverting! Why??? Why not keep it going - keep dropping back your shoulders, and keep bringing your hips back, closer to the pole? Doing this will NOT stall you out. Instead, it will keep your CoM lower for another split second - enough time to finish your inversion so that you can shoot STRAIGHT UP!

You can clearly see in #2 that you're riding the pole in the flat back position. It's not that you're out of time and that's your only choice. Instead, just keep swinging/inverting back more and more - WITHOUT hunching or shrugging your shoulders. DROP BACK!

Perhaps the highbar hip-circle-to-handstand drill will give you the feel and confidence of this body action. Have you tried it? Are you able to do it properly? If not, work on it! Post your vid of your hip-circle-to-handstand, and I'll critique it. Trust me, if you can do it on the highbar, you can do it on the pole!

In summary, I think you're correct in trying to fix vault parts as far back as you can - starting with the run and pole carry - but in your case (IMHO) you'll get the most immediate benefit from fixing your inversion. Get that half-decent, then go back and focus on the plant/takeoff again. It's an iterative process.

Kirk

[sooch90]

Thanks for the replies!

powerplant, when you say takeoff foot breaking, do you mean my last step/takeoff step? I noticed I do that alot too (if this is what you're talking about), and yeah I should definitely work on it! I'm not completely sure how though, I suppose during pole runs or something.

I can do a swinging Bubka, but not consistently and not that well.


Kirk, I actually have never done a hip circle to hand stand before, and I don't have access to a high bar or gymnastics facility. Is there anything else I could do that does not require these things? I do my bubkas on a pull up bar. However, it felt like I could not finish the inversion because I was just too late. I didn't hit the "pocket" where my feet could easily fly up in the right position. I think with a couple more practices, my swing will improve with this new takeoff(of putting strong initial pressure at takeoff).


Keep the advice coming! thanks again!

[KirkB]

Kirk, I actually have never done a hip circle to hand stand before, and I don't have access to a high bar or gymnastics facility.

This is a serious deficiency in your training program, and it shows. You need to find a highbar. It's possible that the pullup bar will suffice, if you have the ceiling clearance to do a handstand on it (or at least 3' of clearance - you won't be getting to a full handstand anytime soon).

Make sure you have proper mats and gloves too. Otherwise, make, beg, borrow, or steal one. PP built one. You could too, if your school can't/won't buy one.

... it felt like I could not finish the inversion because I was just too late. I didn't hit the "pocket" where my feet could easily fly up in the right position. I think with a couple more practices ...

I'm sure it felt that way to you, but I don't think that's the case.

Take a look at the extension that VaultNaked does in his "LET ME KNO WHAT YOU THINK" Video Review thread. Your swing is no worse than his, yet he extends quite nicely. If he can do it, you can do it - with some practice doing hip-circles. The secret is getting used to the sensation of "dropping the shoulders". As your shoulders "drop", your hips (and the rest of your body) extend.

I'm guessing that the difference between you and VN (other than he's a 22-year old collegian) is that he does highbar work and you don't.

You can do it! Good luck!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

I truly believe that the high bar would add at least 3 feet to your vault within a year. Of all the auxilliary equipment for training (stuff other than poles, pits, and a track), the high bar is the most important. I asked altius this question directly this past Summer: "On any given day of training/coaching would you take a pit or a high bar and sand?" "The high bar and sand of course." (Not an exact quotation, but essentially that's how our conversation transpired.)

There is almost no way to practice the swing without actually vaulting or without a bar. The swing is now your limiting factor (as I have mentioned before). I see many of my peers 'practice' their 'swing to rockback' on the ground with a stubby. This is not a good excercise to have as the main auxilliary swing practice. It is hardly even a viable technical excercise if it even is at all. There is no ground in the air.

I wouldn't recommend stealing one, but maybe a bribe to the AD. (But I'm serious.) Building one is not difficult, and it is certainly not expensive. I built minde for around 20 dollars, and you couldn't break it with a bulldozer. All you need is 2 posts (with appropriate sized and spaced holes), a bar, a good toolbox, concrete/cement, a little know-how, and some time. With your facilities, you might even be able to do it with less than that.

GET ACCESS TO ONE! Or else...

[KirkB]

3' is a lot. I'd say 2' at least. VN is shooting at 16-0 to 16-6 bars, and Sooch is shooting at 14' bars. The main difference between the 2 is their EXTENSIONS.

Not that your swing can't use some work, Sooch, but it's already good enough to easily clear 15' with a better EXTENSION. Just keep coming back more. Muscle it if you have to (although a faster swing will get you there without muscling).

What are your comparative grips? (No time to search for that at the moment, but I know they're mentioned.)

Kirk

[charlie]

First jump had a GREAT top and marginal plant!! You got back Quick and had great lift because of the quickness. Your second vault was a Bubka plant but didn't have the quickness back and off, or you would have gotten the lift on top like the first vault and would have cleared 14' by a foot!!! CHARLIE

[VaultMarq26]

I have to agree with both you guys about the bottom or left arm in this situation, but offer my own perspective. Powerplant is on the right track about the negligible push of the bottom arm into the pole, but i agree with I am the walrus about the importance of having the bottom arm not collapse. The bottom arm helps keep your body from getting sucked into the pole.

The above is what is happening in the video....I think your step is part of the issue along with that bottom arm. The initiation of your plant looks good. You just need to keep that arm out while continuing to jump up.

Do you do any plant drills from your normal run where you just plant but don't swing up. That is a great way to work on keeping that arm out and building the confidence to do so in a full vault.

[KirkB]

[sigh]

I feel sorry for Sooch, who's an intermediate vaulter looking for some candid analysis of his vid, and he's getting all these mixed messages.

I'm going to start a new thread in the Advanced Technique forum to continue this discussion.

On this thread, Sooch just needs some guidance to know how to improve his technique. I fear that he's not getting this guidance.

Or maybe contradictory opinions are a GOOD thing ... I dunno.

Kirk

[sooch90]

Thanks everyone for all the replies! Having a lot of different replies is definitely better than not having enough

I'll see what I can do about the high bar, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to. I have a feeling some sort of liability issues may come up with me trying to build one on school campus. I might have a few opportunities to work on the high bar during the break at some gymnastics places, but I won't be able to continue this once school starts again.

Kirk, my grip on the pole is around 13' 2" ish

Vaultmarq, I've done that drill before, but not from a long run. I think I've built up the confidence now with this new plant, but if not, I'll definitely do the drill you suggested. Thanks!

I think all of these views actually work together nicely. I need to work on the high bar in order to clean up my extension, but I also need to keep on planting strongly. However, I think at least technically, I need to shorten the amount of time I put pressure on the pole at the plant. I might be maintaining the pressure for too long because I'm trying to focus on hitting it hard and early. So maybe now I gotta work on releasing that pressure immediately and letting my swing come through?

What do you guys think about that? Should I maintain the pressure, or should I release after the initial pressure at the plant?


Thanks a ton guys!

[powerplant42]

What pressure?

[charlie]

The only drill I have my 23 hs & ms vaulters do is a rope drill that has the vaulter stand NOT SWING with his drive leg parralle and invert to the L position aqnd pull the HIPS to a FULL extension 4 sets of 8 --3days a week. This is done with 3# ankle weights on!!! I as a coach will GUARENTEE that when you vault, you absolutely blow up off the pole by PASSING THROUGH the Lposition. I am continuly asked how my vaulters get so inverted, and the rope drills are the ONLY thing we do because it WORKS Coach Charlie