The wrong idea and the possible dangers

[ACvault]

Since this part of the forum is a little slow right now, I thought this would be a good discussion to bring up.

Having just finished reading Tim Mack's new book, I was intrigued by the chapter entitled "Danger." In this chapter Coach Jim Bemiller is quoted as saying "The pole vault is not for everyone, it takes a good overall athlete to handle the event, let alone compete well. The vaulter used to be one of the best overall athletes on the track team-good hurdler, good relay man, good longer jumper. Now it has become an attraction for the below-average athlete who likes the 'trick' side of the event."

Also, I think this article is relevant to the topic.
http://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/ ... eVaulting1

Now given that, what are everyone's thoughts? Do you think the pole vault has become an event that just takes the bottom of the barrel athletes in high school? Or maybe you could offer some contrasting opinions on how it works differently where you are.

I myself started with the vault because I was not fast enough for sprinting and wasn't interested in distance running. But I knew I had some strength and minor athletic ability so the coach sent me to the pit. I picked it up immediately and was able to stay because I was the only freshman who could jump into the pit without hesitation.

I know some points will be made about underdeveloped athletes who have potential, but here I am referring to the "loser" mentality that Falk refers to in sending kids who have no business doing an extremely difficult and dangerous event over to the pole vault pit just to keep them out of the way of the runners.

Coaches, feel free to lend your input on how you go about choosing vaulters.

[rainbowgirl28]

One thing I love about high school pole vaulting is that athletes of very average natural ability levels can generally achieve success (at the local level) if they work really hard to learn the technique. This does require a few things: access to halfway decent coaches, access to a halfway decent pole selection, and like I said, the time and effort needed to improve both their technique and physical abilities (improve on their weakest points).

Obviously as you reach the higher levels of prep vaulting and into college, physical limitations will weed out the less gifted, but we are just talking about regular high school vaulting.

There is a difference between kids who lack physical abilities and kids who are reckless daredevils. Kids who are unwilling to vault safely should not come anywhere near the pole vault pit. But kids who are just plain slow as a snail are not a danger to the vault provided their coach has them gripping appropriately.

I am slow as dirt. When I started track my junior year I came from gymnastics and had horrible running form to boot. I wasn't very good at pole vault either, I jumped 6' a bunch of times. But I worked really really hard, my running form improved, I went to indoor practices that were 45 minutes away, I went to indoor meets in Oregon and Reno, I ran cross country (trust me, it helped in my case), I continued with club gymnastics and high school gymnastics. I can honestly say that few girls in the state that year worked as hard as I did, certainly none in my classification.

I went on to jump 9'9" my senior season and win state, and 10'6" that summer to make it to Junior Olympic Nationals.

If I had tried to succeed in the 100 meter dash, I never would have even made it to League. If I had tried to succeed in the hurdles, maybe I could have made it to tri-districts, but certainly not to state.


So in conclusion, certainly to be a world-class pole vaulter, you need a certain level of athleticism that some people will just never have. But I do think it can be a sport for nearly any high school athlete provided they are not reckless and are willing to work hard at it.

As coaches, I think it vital that we recruit the best kids on the track team to the pole vault. But I also think that we should not run away that slow kid who is working their tail off. That kid could be a great coach someday.

[Vault&Flip]

Amen to that Becca.

I too, like others, was incredibly slow and definitely a below-average athlete, but hard work and a lot of perseverance paid off. The problem, I find, is that there are 99 kids who are out there to goof around and waste time, for every one hard working kid that may not be necessarily athletically gifted. That being said, I would take a kid with no athletic ability and a great attitude any day, over a kid with tons of ability, but no drive. Wasted talent is one of my biggest pet peeves.

I really have been struggling with this issue a lot lately, especially when it comes to scouting boys and girls for the event. I find that girls, even if they may not have the requisite ability to be GREAT at the start, are willing to listen and learn and work hard. Boys on the other hand, are frustrating. Of course, they all want to pole vault, and a large group of high school-aged boys basically means that nothing will ever get accomplished.

I guess the point of this diatribe is to say that although we all want to be successful as coaches, and we all want to have the super athletic kid that jumps extremely high, it is likely to be rare. We are more likely to get the average athlete, and with that said, hopefully we get the one who is willing to work hard and not the one who is there just to be there. As to the issue of danger....I do believe that a lot of that comes down to the coach. If a kid is dangerous when he jumps, then as coaches, we have a duty to step back and provide a training plan to make the athlete's vaulting safer. If the kid is unsafe and doesn't listen, then it is simple, don't let him/her vault.

[Tim McMichael]

Having just finished reading Tim Mack's new book, I was intrigued by the chapter entitled "Danger." In this chapter Coach Jim Bemiller is quoted as saying "The pole vault is not for everyone, it takes a good overall athlete to handle the event, let alone compete well. The vaulter used to be one of the best overall athletes on the track team-good hurdler, good relay man, good longer jumper. Now it has become an attraction for the below-average athlete who likes the 'trick' side of the event."

I hate to disagree with a coach of his stature, but I'm not sure Bemiller's point is a valid one. The vault is a weak event athletically even at the world class level. Name a single vaulter who has transitioned to the NFL like several world class sprinters and hurdlers have? What other event in track and field could the best vaulters in the world compete in at a world class level? The "trick" element of the vault is its defining characteristic on any level. The fact that athletes who are able to succeed in technically easier events don't take to the vault is why we don't have someone with world class sprint speed carrying a pole down the runway. Even Bubka at his fastest would not have been in the picture when the finish line camera went off in the Olympic final. It is dedication to learning the event and investing the decade or more to master it that makes a world class vaulter. The best are great athletes, but a great deal of success can be had by athletes of sub-par ability. I have posted these stats before, and I'll do it again in the interest of making this point:

138 lbs
5'8"
4.6 40 yard sprint, hand timed
250 lb bench

18'6.5" PR
NCAA Champion and Meet Record Holder 1989

I was not able to make the team in any other sport in high school, and that was with a graduating class of 40 students. I was certainly no Tim Mac, but there are a lot of vaulters who would be satisfied with those results and coaches who would be glad to have them.

This is not to say that we should not run off the reckless and undisciplined. Safety is an issue, but even in this regard the vault is sort of self-regulating. Athletes who are weak and slow have a problem putting enough power into the event to hurt themselves, especially if they are guided by a coach wise enough to have them stiff pole till they have developed a degree of proficiency. The most dangerous vaulters I have seen by far are the athletically gifted beginners. All the athleticism in the world by itself is not enough in the vault. It is not an event that someone can just pick up and do, no matter how fast and strong and coordinated they are. Yet I see coaches handing the starting fullback a 15' 180 and saying "Have at it!" with the idea that they can just pick it up. And the more success they have, the more unsafe they become. The worst case scenario of all is an excellent athlete who picks up a pole, formulates some idea in his head of what the vault is (usually some combination of using his arms to bend the pole and flipping upside down as fast as he can) and then starts clearing bars with this approach. He thinks what he is doing is correct, and he is one jump away from disaster at all times. He is also certain to be beaten by the slower and weaker athlete who spent football and basketball season training for the vault and working his way up through the progression of skills necessary to do it correctly.

I have, in the past, rejected athletes like the one I just described because I could not be responsible for their safety. I did not have to tell them not to show up anymore. I just insisted they learn to stiff pole before we did anything else, and they quit almost immediately. Which is another case in point.

[KirkB]

Prior to Tim's post here, I was going to reply to this thread, but after reading the replies of RG and Vault&Flip, and after reading Tim's Chronicles post today, I thought I had better not clutter up this thread with such a long story.

I have my own thread for that, so I just posted my story there instead.

And now after reading Tim's post (above), I agree with most of it, but I didn't experience all of it. That's the "lucky" part of my career - as in "lucky I'm still alive"!

In a nutshell, I was slow and ungifted when I started out my PV career. Actually, I didn't even realize that a PV career was in the works back when I started it!.

At any rate, like Tim said, I'm living proof that pole vaulters are made - not born.

Check out my post today on the Bryde Bend thread for details. You will see where it differs from Tim's points.

Just 2 different experiences, by 2 different farm boys.

Kirk

[belmore]

A long time ago, I coached a little guy with what i deemed very little abiltiy in the vault. He was in the 8th grade, no coordination, kinda fast but a balls out attitude. Scary balls out attitude. After a semi successful summer season, I sat this kid down and was going to suggest another event, something that wouldn't scare me. His balls out attitude beat me to the punch, I didn't have the chance to suggest a move to another event, he told me that football was over in November and he was going to be ready to start jumping then. So, in the greatest coaching move I have or will ever make, I kept my mouth shut and realized EVERY athlete deserves their chance. It will not always end in gold and endorsements and wheatie boxes. He kept his end of the deal up, after football he worked his butt off and won the AAU jr Olympics the next year and eventually won the state championship. Now when I see an uncoordinated, slow child come to my pit, who loves flying through the air, I will never discount them. When you find your passion, the work to become faster, stronger come's with that passion. No, we are not all born with the genetics to be great athletes, but I think we are all born with that adventurer in all of us, the goofier of us end up choosing this sport. So, everybody that gets pushed to this sport will not allways be the athlete a coach will seek out, but he/she could be the personality you seek . I will never give up on a kid who likes this stupid event, they are all worth working with

[htheodore]

Good call Brian. I am right there with you. As coaches, we would all like to have the very best athletes to choose from. Unfortunaltely we don't always get the pick of the litter. Sometimes the "best" athletes choose not to vault due to the nature of the event and the time involved. Sometimes the great athletes choose to go straight baseball, football or another sport. Sometimes head track coaches dont want their best sprinters or hurdlers to vault. So what are vault coaches to do? Not coach the vault? The kids that are a hazard to themselves (goof-offs) or others don't need to be a part of an event with the risks we have in the vault. The kids with little athletic ability either work hard and develop into athletes or realize the event isn't for them and eventually call it quits. Wouldn't we all like to have someone with Usane Bolt's abilitys. From a coaching standpoint, I enjoy coaching the kids with the great attitude and work ethic. The challenge for me is getting the most out of each athlete weather they jump 10' or 16'. I want success for every kid, and in the end, I want the experience over the long haul to be a good one they will remember when they are old and grey.

[Branko720]

Yes I agree with the last two posts. Coaching high school athletes does not always allow you to work with the best athletes. In fact when you do a good job with someone who is an average athlete at best many head coaches begin to give you sub par athletes to work with. They do not want to give up their best talent. I am not in a position which I can argue with a head coach. Most of us aren't. In fact I have also had the mediocre athlete, good pole vaulter in my area taken away from me because coaches now believe he or she is stud and would rather they run the 400.

I do believe there are minimal requirements that must be met to vault safely but all you have to do, as a coach, is give that kid a short grip and a small pole and make sure he or she is landing in the coaches box. So the event can be safe for almost anybody. The individual may never be a county champion or even dual meet winner, but they can have fun and learn that with hard work and determination improvements and progress can happen.

What I find to be a "possible danger" or "wrong idea" is the athlete that has had success, maybe even at the national level, but then starts to lose interest. I don't care how high someone jumps, 6'6" or 17'6", I am looking for hard work and progress. If an athlete is working hard and there is no progress, that is my fault, but too often I see a kid that has had success and then stops working. I believe this is dangerous. Sure I can make sure the kid is gripping down or on smaller poles, but those kids know what they used to be able to do and they become frustrated and try to do what their bodies can no longer handle.

I have told this to many people and I will continue to say it. I would rather work with an unathletic kid, that is willing, no wants to work, than a talented heartless athlete.

So I guess I disagree with Bemiller on this, although I do have the utmost respect for him as a coach and a person. Plus he is probably a little more concerned with producing athletes that can compete on a world class level.

[dj]

Hello

I don’t disagree with Bemiller, partially because I know what he is trying to say and know that he would never “exclude” a young athlete from participating unless he knew there was not a chance. (on the other hand Tully would tell him (or her) to go play tennis, golf or shuffle board)

Sorry couldn’t help but throw in a Tullyism ….

To the point. Bemiller, from the time he took over the vault at Tennessee, has worked at the highest level of the NCAA and the world.. his statement is in the context of developing potential NCAA and world Champions. Of course Mack jumped 13-6?? In high school but he obviously had “something”. That something allowed him to win a gold medal. That something had to be a combination of physical and mental..

Somewhere I posted my “first day of practice.. head coach.. speech”… and basically what it said was……. “to often the head coach will send every athlete to an event based on the athletes speed, jumping ability, looks, size… and when he is left with a “hand full if kids that may not be tall, fast or skinny for cross county’ he decides he needs pole vault points”…

I have kept the philosophy that there is an event in track and field for everyone… and I will give everyone a fair chance, but everyone “left over’ should not be pole vaulting.. there is a “weight to height” parameter that should be considered (and that should be used for the football fullback as well)… and of course to move a higher hand grip, which means higher vaults, takes more speed.

Kirk you may not have had speed but you had something…

In 1984 had a very “hair pulling’ confrontation with the USATF/Olympic official that was in charge of setting the vault pits up for the finals. There was three possible location for the pits and I wanted to know in advance so we would know what set of poles to bring. He went into this pole vaulter “premadonna” speech… when I said cut the crap, just tell me where the pits will be for the final! He continued even louder. I finally stopped him from talking and told him this… I said “ Tell you what, why don’t you go down to the long jump pit and dig a hole at the start of the pit.. 20 feet deep and 20 feet wide…everyone jumps over 20 feet right?? and then take a “head count” of how many long jumpers will show up tonight and have the balls to jump, including Carl Lewis”…

My point is this, would you send your slowest, least “athletic” athlete to long jump if there was a hole in the sand just10 feet deep and 10 feet wide?

The bottom line is you have to have a coach that understands the basic physics of the event and that doesn’t put “bravado” a head of safety, even if you have to exclude someone for their own safety and an athlete that is will to put in the work to become successful.

At Bemiller’s level, athletic ability and speed are defining ingredients of success.

dj

[Branko720]

The bottom line is you have to have a coach that understands the basic physics of the event and that doesn’t put “bravado” a head of safety, even if you have to exclude someone for their own safety and an athlete that is will to put in the work to become successful.

I am not talking about kids who have bravado or are "crazy" enough to do the event. What I am talking about is kids who will do the work necessary to learn the skills of the vault as well as put in the time to train and become more athletic.

I have worked with kids who have plenty of athletic ability, and according to the numbers or times they have achieved in other events reach or exceed the athletic requirements of the event, but will not jump off the ground from a one step or a zero into a sand pit or even do the simplest grass drills, due to fear, or something. The kid who is willing to jump off the ground, no matter athletic ability can pole vault. I of course am not talking about a 5'5" 250lbs kid. I currently coach a girl who is 4'11" 90lbs, runs the hundred in about 15.5, but from a three she can now grip about 9'. I started her out with smaller grips, she has worked hard learning the skills of pole vaulting and hit the weight room. She will never jump 12', never mind a world class height, (her pr is 8') but she is jumping safely and learning and progressing. Her first season she only jumped 6'6".

When I work with some athletes like her I am not worried about danger. I obviously am a pole vault coach. I agree with DJ that without a PV coach this might be dangerous but that would go for good athletes as well.

I do know what DJ and Jim are after. They are elite level coaches. They want people who can be world class. And yes Tim only jumped 13'6" in high school but Jim knew he could jump higher. I in-fact coach an athlete who also only jumped 13'6" in high school, but he was a far greater athlete than that, he just never had a coach, as I would imagine Tim did not, at the high school level. Now my athlete has a pr of 17'5" and is looking for more this year.

This is the high school forum. People have been discussing high school level athletes. Should I turn away a kid who is not good enough to compete with Hooker or Isi? I'm sorry but most high school kids won't be able to do that. That does not mean it is not safe. In fact I have attended a clinic where Jim talked about this topic. And I understand, but at the same time I have to disagree.

Just because a kid cannot be a state champion or represent the nation at world juniors doesn't mean they can't jump, or that it is dangerous.

[KirkB]

... Mack jumped 13-6?? In high school but he obviously had “something”. That something allowed him to win a gold medal. That something had to be a combination of physical and mental..

... and of course to move a higher hand grip, which means higher vaults, takes more speed.

Kirk you may not have had speed but you had something…

Yes, and I know what it was ...

... an athlete that is willing to put in the work to become successful.

... and ...

... What I am talking about is kids who will do the work necessary to learn the skills of the vault as well as put in the time to train and become more athletic.

You both said it yourselves.

Don't underestimate the power of the human mind: self-confidence (to a fault), determination, the power of positive thinking, fortitude, and mental toughness.

The most athletic of HS jocks don't always have these mental attributes - which are just as important, if not more important than physical skills. Sometimes, the shy boy that's a second-stringer on the soccer or basketball team can shine on the runway. Just ask myself or Tim McMichael.

It took me a LOT longer than other vaulters to learn how to run fast, but I finally got there - starting in 1971. I was 20 years old then - a very late bloomer. Even if I didn't injure my ankles in 1969 and 1970, I would still have been 18 years old when I finally learned how to run properly.

But my drive and determination was always there - from a very young age. I think coaches should look for that, and recruit accordingly. I forget who said on another thread that they "got cut" from their Grade 7 track team. That's ridiculous!

At that level, anyone that's willing to practice should be able to compete! That's such an impressionable age - where many diamonds in the rough either start their journey, or give up without realizing their true potential.

A Jr. HS coach has a role to play to encourage young kids not to give up. If the odds are a million-to-one, then you might not find that one (e.g. Mack) unless you give the other 999,999 an opportunity to learn how to PV.

Kirk

[dj]

good morning

Kirk you are right on all points...

what i did was throw out arguments on both sides of the coin...

all the reasons that have been given to encourage coaches to give everyone a chance, are valid...

but the key word is "coaches"... most programs don't have PV coaches... or anyone that can monitor the event... under those circumstances "everyone" should not be given unlimited chances to vault...

ie.. your 5-8 170 athlete that wants to vault (on the other thread)... there are some major issues..(height to body weight) even if he is strong and fast.. i have had young decathletes, really good athletes, (including Al Joiner who was already and Olympic champion in the triple jump) that were going to have safety issue unless the event was taught correctly..

correctly for a beginner of that body weight means to “stiff pole” until approximately 11/11-6 .. then they may have a feel for the event that will allow them to vault safely.

If you are “that coach” that has the patients and time to help that athlete succeed, they should jump.. if not, try them on the 300/400 meter hurdles, Javelin or discus.

Aunt Minnie-ism.. “If you don’t stir the pot, some of the good stuff might stick to the bottom.”

dj