The Swing

[volteur]

I'm glad you agree now that Bubka's lead knee does stop at the end of the takeoff and sure Bubka continues to move forward after takeoff, that's a given. What is not happening is his lead knee is not changing position anymore RELATIVE to his body. That is what this debate was centered around. The knee has stopped in relation to the body and his body has gained the benefit of that relative stopping.

Well, that wasn't my understanding of "the debate"

. I have no issue of his knee position not changing relative to his body. That was never an issue -

it was just that I consider that position "downstream" from the takeoff follow-thru. But I was definitely opposed to saying that you lock that position BEFORE takeoff - including the follow-thru INTENT!

hello Kirk you said exactly this from page 8:

I will argue that you even drive your lead knee FURTHER once you leave the ground - PAST horizontal. That's called the "follow-thru"

and

I'm referrring specifically to volteur's comment where he said if your lead knee rises past horiz, then it's bad. I disagree with that, and the reason is becuz of the need to follow-thru.

this is what began this whole ridiculous avoidance game you have been playing. How can you now say the opposite without agreeing you have changed your mind?

By the way the hip drive is a larger factor than knee drive and they are very different things.

There is no need to make out like you are better than the mere mortals you keep referring to. Also technique is technique and timing is timing, athleticism makes no difference to these factors.

Kirk you are all over the place and it is impossible to have a rational debate with you. You continuously speak like an expert and have the gall to say anybody who is not a coach or an elite athlete is unable to discuss these things yet i am both and you are neither - there is no point discussing things with you when you are so dishonest and so random.

ciao

[KirkB]

Ridiculous avoidance game? Dishonest? Random?

I thought we agreed to drop the insults?

I do appreciate, however, that you editted your last post, because in your first draft, you called me "devious".

I really don't understand you, volteur. I'm none of these things. I am only a truth-seeker, in quest of optimal vaulting technique.

And you've taken my "coach / elite-athlete" point completely out of context as well. My point was that if you're going to defend the 6.40 model, then you had better be prepared to have it cross-examined (just like in a court of law). Only the original author, or someone that has LIVED this model, WITH SUCCESS can adequately defend it.

If you feel that you have coached an athlete that followed this model, then you may very well be in a position to defend it. Or if you've practiced the model yourself.

As for mere mortals, I definitely, definitely, definitely include myself in that category. I've been very open, honest, and humble in admitting my technical faults, including my extremely poor runup, my passive vault parts, and my not-so-good push-off. Always. Maybe you missed those posts?

If you read all of Agapit's posts in the context of which he intended them, the 6.40 model is the model that he feels an athlete can (or needs to) use to break the WR. This includes only the very elite of the elite. If you want to put a number on it, let's just say the 6.00 club vaulters that are presently active - although I don't really think he's holding out much hope for them either, unless they change their technique significantly.

Another way to look at it - which I think was Agapit's intent (I really wish he would return from his sabatical and speak for himself) is that a WR contender may not be born within his (or our) lifetime - but he hopes one will be. In other words, we will no longer have a new PV WR holder at least every decade. It may be a once-in-a-lifetime possibility, because that's how few and far between these elite-elite athletes are, with the athleticism required to practice the 6.40 model and to clear 6.40m.

I urge you to drop the insults, and stick with the wheat. [sigh] [sigh] [sigh]

Kirk

[altius]

"(I really wish he would return from his sabatical and speak for himself)" If Roman is sensible he will continue to take my advice and stay away.

I understand that in the middle ages the clergy argued about the number of angels that could fit onto the head of a pin -your discussion is getting down to the same level. Even worse you two guys have turned this topic into an egofest - a pissing contest where nothing will be resolved.

Remember the saying from the Talmud, "Let not thy learning exceed thy deeds. Mere knowledge is not the goal but action." So why dont both of you take some of that intelligence and energy and actually apply it to coaching pole vaulters - after all both Canada and New Zealand need all the help they can get.

As you have indicated several times Peter, I know nothing about the vault, so it should be pretty easy for someone with your abilities to surpass my efforts - which are listed in BTB2. Give it a go and be sure to let me know when it happens - I just hope I live long enough to see it.

[volteur]

i dropped the devious because i realised it probably wasn't intentional.

please refer to the quotes in the above post

that's all i was referring to there, the fact you reversed your opinion on the issue of the knee above the horizonal, the entire beginning of our many post debate

thanks

ps i have lived this model for quite a few years and i am coaching a number of athletes according to this model - the Petrov one anyway which Agapit is totoally in line with in my opinion

pps you avoided answering those quotes hence the "avoidance game you play" is once more in evidence

[KirkB]

i dropped the devious because i realised it probably wasn't intentional.

... you avoided answering those quotes hence the "avoidance game you play" is once more in evidence

If you "realised it probably wasn't intentional" then why did you call me dishonest?

Volteur, I am VERY ANNOYED at you questioning my integrity.

I will not be answering your questions until I get an apology - either here or by PM.

And once you read my reply to your quotes (assuming that your apology is sincere), you will see that you owe me yet another apology for completly misunderstanding me!

I was NOT avoiding your questions. I have very patiently answered almost every question that you've ever asked. You ask a lot of questions, and I do try to answer them - honestly.

I considered the points that I made in my last post to be more important than your witch-hunt questions. I thought we had agreed on the takeoff, and were now ready to move on to the swing?

I usually don't mind answering your questions. But when you ask them in an accusatory and demanding tone, you should not expect an instant answer.

Also, less is more. Too many questions or answers all in the same post lessens the value of the post by diluting it.

This thread is no longer any fun for me, since you're making it so NEGATIVE.

I'd rather talk about POLE VAULTING TECHNIQUE!

If I don't respond to you for a few weeks or months, it will be because of the same reason that Agapit took a sabatical. I need a break from you!

[sigh]

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

I deleted a few posts and volteur is taking a 24 hour break from the board.

Be nice. It's not a hard rule to follow. I don't care if you guys want to have nitpicky discussions about tiny little details, but be civil about it.

[volteur]

"(I really wish he would return from his sabatical and speak for himself)" If Roman is sensible he will continue to take my advice and stay away.

I understand that in the middle ages the clergy argued about the number of angels that could fit onto the head of a pin -your discussion is getting down to the same level. Even worse you two guys have turned this topic into an egofest - a pissing contest where nothing will be resolved.

Remember the saying from the Talmud, "Let not thy learning exceed thy deeds. Mere knowledge is not the goal but action." So why dont both of you take some of that intelligence and energy and actually apply it to coaching pole vaulters - after all both Canada and New Zealand need all the help they can get.

As you have indicated several times Peter, I know nothing about the vault, so it should be pretty easy for someone with your abilities to surpass my efforts - which are listed in BTB2. Give it a go and be sure to let me know when it happens - I just hope I live long enough to see it.

i will keep your challenge in mind Alan as i go about my business but please be aware of your own intellectual dishonesty and self aggrandising. Those two factors really do you no favours.

sigining off now - not a fan of these games and censorship - good luck to all who quest for a better vault

ciao

ps i have BTB2 on my desk now, somehow??? - nice almanac. No manifesto or coaching manual. Still a job well done.

[ladyvolspvcoach]

let's see . . . I believe just before the train wreck . . . . it was "do you like to swing?" I voted no!! I thought this was a wonderful topic and skillfully introduced. Any body know what the last contribution to the topic was????? Maybe we can get it back on track....

[altius]

David - You may have to wait until Peter has expelled all his bile - or better still - decides to actually begin coaching vaulters - it is certainly needed because I dont think NZ has had a male vaulter at the Olympics since 92 - - - or even sets about writing an improvement on BTB2. Should be easy for someone with his talents.

[altius]

" please be aware of your own intellectual dishonesty and self aggrandising".

Peter you may not be aware that to write in a public forum that someone is intellectually dishonest, is libellous - so if you want to pursue that issue you had better have some facts that will stand up in court.

Secondly re self aggrandising. In the first place I realise that this might seem to be the case to someone who has yet to achieve anything in the world of coaching track and field. However I challenge you to contact Mark Stewart - his email is mark.stewart@rmit.edu.au and ask him his opinion about that - I am happy to have his opinion published on pvp. As you should know not only is Mark a world class coach but one of the straightest guys on the planet. I will accept his judgement - will you?

[volteur]

ok i see - you are not even aware of doing it, silly of me to have brought it up.

not sure what the rest of your post is about really. Not sure why you brought up Mark Stewart and you should know i have been friends with him for about 15 years now.

by the way i coach vaulters and in total there are about 14 people currently in this club from raw beginners at age 13 to a 3.95m 14 year old female who is ranked 1 in the world for her age to a 5.22m male vaulter who up till 3 weeks ago thought stiff arming the pole was the way to go. I've only been here 9 weeks. Give me time.

i really don't have a problem with you Alan except when you bignote yourself. I think you are a big part of Australian pole vaulting history. You were the first Australian coach to bring a number of vaulters well over 5m and preceeded Steve Rippon, Mark Stewart and later Alex Parnov who all coached some world class vaulters. I accept you can coach vaulters up to about 5.50m after all you have had at least 4 or 5 male ones who have jumped between 5.40 and 5.51.

Anyway to get back on track with this thread do you believe in the swing or not?

[altius]

"a 3.95m 14 year old female who is ranked 1 in the world for her age" - and do YOU coach her? Who is bignoteing now?

Have you contacted Mark yet? If you are confident in what you have said you should have already done it . If you dont contact him then we can all draw our own conclusions about your claims! Perhaps I will have to do it???