This appears to be a scientific paper about horizontal pole vaulting, published in 2002. According to "The History of the Pole Vault", this was done centuries ago to cross canals. Will it make a comeback as a future Olympic sport?
Here's the URL ... http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120133495/abstract
There's a fee for buying this paper, so this is all I could glean from the synopsis ...
D. P. Sheehan
Department of Physics, University of San Diego, San Diego, CA 92110, USA
Correspondence address: D. P. Sheehan. Department of Physics, University of San Diego, San Diego, CA 92110,
USA. Tel.: 619-260-4095; Fax: 619-260-4619, E-mail: dsheehan@sandiego.edu
Copyright 2002 Blackwell Science Ltd
KEYWORDS
dynamics • pole vault
ABSTRACT
A new track and field event is proposed in which an elastic pole – essentially a pole vault pole – is used to jump for maximum horizontal distance. Analysis indicates that significant horizontal jumping distances are possible, perhaps in excess of 20 m.
Although their athletic goals are different, the biomechanics of the catapult are similar to that of the pole vault, so similar terminology will be used. ...
Thoughts?
Kirk
Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
- KirkB
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
- Lifetime Best: 5.34
- Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
- powerplant42
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 2571
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:58 am
- Location: Italy
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
LJ TJ HJ PV + CP
Wouldn't it be the FIFTH jump KB? Typo much!?
I'd love to see it at the games... I don't think it would be as much fun though. Also, how would someone set up the event (apparatus)?
Wouldn't it be the FIFTH jump KB? Typo much!?
I'd love to see it at the games... I don't think it would be as much fun though. Also, how would someone set up the event (apparatus)?
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka
- KirkB
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
- Lifetime Best: 5.34
- Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
You're right about the event count, but don't shoot the messenger. That's the title of their paper!
I'm thinking that this would have to be done into a lake. Otherwise, it might be just too dangerous ... unless you want to set up the CJ pit over the entire infield!
Typo on CP? CataPult or Catapult Jump?
Kirk
I'm thinking that this would have to be done into a lake. Otherwise, it might be just too dangerous ... unless you want to set up the CJ pit over the entire infield!
Typo on CP? CataPult or Catapult Jump?
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
- powerplant42
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 2571
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:58 am
- Location: Italy
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
CataPAULT!
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka
- KirkB
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
- Lifetime Best: 5.34
- Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
PV4D!
http://www.usatf.org/statistics/champions/USAOutdoorTF/men/mPV_distance.asp
Kirk
http://www.usatf.org/statistics/champions/USAOutdoorTF/men/mPV_distance.asp
USA Outdoor Track & Field Champions
Men's Pole Vault for Distance
1916- Not held
1915 26-7.375 Platt Adams NYAC
1914 28-0.5 Platt Adams NYAC
1913 27-9.625 Platt Adams NYAC
1912 Not held
1911 28-0.5 Harold Babcock NYAC
1910 28-2 Platt Adams NYAC
1909 27-10 Harold Babcock NYAC
1908 26-9.5 W.A. McLeod Irish AAC
1907 28-0 Martin Sheridan IAAC
1906 27-1.5 Martin Sheridan IAAC
1894-1905 Not held
1893 27-5 A.H. Green Chicago AA
1892- Not held
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
- KirkB
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
- Lifetime Best: 5.34
- Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
NEW WORLD'S MARK FOR POLE VAULT;
Martin J. Sheridan Clears 28 Feet and 3 Inches in the A.A.U. Meet.
October 26, 1907, Saturday
Page 12, 1584 words
After being beaten by a hair's breadth in three contests during the evening, Martin J. Sheridan made a new world's record in the pole vault for distance in the closing event of the indoor track and field championships of the Amateur Athletic Union last night at Madison Square Garden, beating the old mark by six inches.
View full article: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E03E2D71F30E233A25755C2A9669D946697D6CF
Kirk
Martin J. Sheridan Clears 28 Feet and 3 Inches in the A.A.U. Meet.
October 26, 1907, Saturday
Page 12, 1584 words
After being beaten by a hair's breadth in three contests during the evening, Martin J. Sheridan made a new world's record in the pole vault for distance in the closing event of the indoor track and field championships of the Amateur Athletic Union last night at Madison Square Garden, beating the old mark by six inches.
View full article: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E03E2D71F30E233A25755C2A9669D946697D6CF
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
- powerplant42
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 2571
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:58 am
- Location: Italy
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
It's been DONE already!? !
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka
- rainbowgirl28
- I'm in Charge
- Posts: 30435
- Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 1:59 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter, I coach and officiate as life allows
- Lifetime Best: 11'6"
- Gender: Female
- World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
- Favorite Vaulter: Casey Carrigan
- Location: A Temperate Island
- Contact:
- KirkB
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
- Lifetime Best: 5.34
- Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
That vid is very interesting!
Before starting this thread, I tried to search for "pole vaulting for distance" on PVP, but never thought to search for "canal jumping".
The technique is very interesting. First, he grabs the pole and "swings" with one leg on each side of the pole. Ouch. Then, as he climbs the pole, did you notice how slowly it rotates past vertical? I'm willing to bet that it's stuck in some mud at the bottom of the canal. Or maybe this guy is just so good that he PURPOSELY keeps it balanced that way as he climbs it?
I had no idea that this sport is still alive and well!
The Sheehan scientific paper, however, has a couple distinct differences, I think ...
(1) It proposes to use a fiberglass pole - probably with a similar runup to normal pole vaulting for height. Wild!
(2) Pole climbing in mid-vault is probably disallowed - just as in PV4H.
With canal jumping, I think they have the right idea by going over water. However, the concrete wall that divides the sand pit from the water doesn't sound like a very good idea.
Kudos to Paul Litchfield for actually trying this ... and making it across!
I wonder how far the guy in the vid went? Sheehan was proposing (theoretically) that 20m was possible, but I don't think he considered pole-climbing as a permissible technique. That adds a LOT of distance!
Kirk
Before starting this thread, I tried to search for "pole vaulting for distance" on PVP, but never thought to search for "canal jumping".
The technique is very interesting. First, he grabs the pole and "swings" with one leg on each side of the pole. Ouch. Then, as he climbs the pole, did you notice how slowly it rotates past vertical? I'm willing to bet that it's stuck in some mud at the bottom of the canal. Or maybe this guy is just so good that he PURPOSELY keeps it balanced that way as he climbs it?
I had no idea that this sport is still alive and well!
The Sheehan scientific paper, however, has a couple distinct differences, I think ...
(1) It proposes to use a fiberglass pole - probably with a similar runup to normal pole vaulting for height. Wild!
(2) Pole climbing in mid-vault is probably disallowed - just as in PV4H.
With canal jumping, I think they have the right idea by going over water. However, the concrete wall that divides the sand pit from the water doesn't sound like a very good idea.
Kudos to Paul Litchfield for actually trying this ... and making it across!
I wonder how far the guy in the vid went? Sheehan was proposing (theoretically) that 20m was possible, but I don't think he considered pole-climbing as a permissible technique. That adds a LOT of distance!
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
- KirkB
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
- Lifetime Best: 5.34
- Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Beyond the pole vault: catapult – the fourth jump
Sheehan took this proposed "fourth jump" fairly seriously ...
Before reading the paper, I got the impression that it was a "theoretical" scientific paper without any intent of ever actually performing this event in track meets or elsewhere.
After reading it, I see that sure enough, it's loaded with scientific equations, where he predicts "catapults" in the 18m range, and that Sheehan himself has actually self-tested his theories about how this event would work.
But other than his speculation of why this event is not yet popular, there is no hint that this is anything but a serious proposal of a serious new event.
He appears oblivious to the "Pole Vault for Distance" and "Canal Jumping" that have been documented in this thread. Instead, he regards this as a completely new event.
He refers to the "Catapult" as "the fourth jump" because there's two vertical jumps - one with (PV) and one without (HJ) the aid of a pole, and only one horizontal jump (LJ) - without the aid of a pole. His proposed "catapult" fills this gap in the jumps. I don't think he's oblivious to the TJ, he seems to consider it as just another horizontal jump without a pole.
Sheehan proposes that Catapult technique would consist of 5 general phases: (1) Approach (run-up), (2) Pole bending, (3) Pole unbending, (4) Push-off and release, and (5) Landing.
These phases follow traditional fiberglass pole vaulting (for height) technique fairly closely. It's the differences that I find intriguing!
During the "Pole unbending" phase, he proposes this:
I can't visualize this. How would this work for horizontal fiberglass pole vaulting any different than for vertical fiberglass pole vaulting? Does this boil down to "double-bouncing"? Triple-bouncing? Will there be sufficient time for "double or triple-bouncing"? I don't think he "gets" the physics of this part of the vault, no matter whether it's horizontal or vertical. I don't think you can just "pull down on the pole then let up on it" repeatedly. It doesn't work that way!
I do see in the "Canal Jumping" vid how the athlete balances on the pole. As he climbs it, his CoG rises, slowing the descent of the pole. This appears to give him ample time for further climbing. But with a bending pole, isn't the entire action going to be quite fast - just as in the vertical PV? There's no time for double-bouncing, is there? When I think of "double-bouncing" all I can visualize is how you bail after a bad takeoff. You hang onto the pole and it bends a second time, just before you ride it safely to the pit. But if you're in the middle of a GOOD horizontal jump, I can't see how you're going to be positioned to "double-bounce".
Sheehan then proceeds to explain how the athlete can shoot off the end of the pole - like a vertical PVer, except in more of a horizontal direction.
In the "Landing" phase, he describes 3 alternate techniques: (1) like a LJer, with 0° rotation, (2) like a PVer, with 180° rotation, (3) like a PVer, but with a full 360° of rotation. He speculates that the 3rd technique would be the most difficult to perfect, but would be the most optimal for reaching maximum distance. I think he's probably nailed this aspect of the catapult, but IMHO it's of marginal importance compared to what you do in the SWING phase. Come to think about it, he doesn't really mention the word "swing", other than the "child swing" analogy in the quote above.
Lastly, he doesn't talk much about SAFETY. He talks about a sand-filled sector "like throwing fields". But I wonder if he really understands that what he's proposing creates a HUMAN PROJECTILE rather than an INANIMATE OBJECT (a shot put) landing in the "throwing field"?
After acknowledging early in the paper of "the lack of large, safe landing pits in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that would have been necessary to contest it", he makes no mention to a viable solution to this, other than a landing pit with "well-fluffed sand". This isn't exactly innovative. That same sand existed in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries!
I pity the poor athlete that tries to train and compete in the CATAPULT whilst also competing in the POLE VAULT. The two just won't mix! In PV, you're taught how NOT to shoot past the end of the pit, whereas in CATAPULT, you're ENCOURAGED and REWARDED to do exactly that!
In CATAPULT, you need to use a SOFT pole, so that you can blow thru to project your body in the horizontal direction, whereas in PV, you need to use a STIFFER pole, so that you DON'T blow thru!
Hmm... I can think of LOTS of reasons why this will never catch on in a traditional ATHLETICS competition.
i can, however, see some potential for it as an EXTREME sport - perhaps in conjunction with a Beach Vault. The vaulters would either land on the [hopefully] soft sand, or perhaps into the water. The entertainment value would be the huge distances that the athletes can potentially jump, and the danger factor. But it can't be so dangerous that normal, good catapults cause injuries.
Really, it's just a new twist on the CANAL JUMPING that's already done in the Netherlands!
Yeh, it's dubious, to say the least. But you know, if this event is ever held on the Pacific Coast, I'LL BE THERE!
Kirk
Before reading the paper, I got the impression that it was a "theoretical" scientific paper without any intent of ever actually performing this event in track meets or elsewhere.
After reading it, I see that sure enough, it's loaded with scientific equations, where he predicts "catapults" in the 18m range, and that Sheehan himself has actually self-tested his theories about how this event would work.
But other than his speculation of why this event is not yet popular, there is no hint that this is anything but a serious proposal of a serious new event.
One might ask why this event has not been pursued up to now. Its absence can probably be traced to the lack of large, safe landing pits in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that would have been necessary to contest it.
...
As catapulting requires relatively large pits, it did not find its way early into the canon of track and field events, was not instituted into the early Olympic Games and, therefore, was never seriously pursued. Basically, its absence appears to be a historical accident.
He appears oblivious to the "Pole Vault for Distance" and "Canal Jumping" that have been documented in this thread. Instead, he regards this as a completely new event.
He refers to the "Catapult" as "the fourth jump" because there's two vertical jumps - one with (PV) and one without (HJ) the aid of a pole, and only one horizontal jump (LJ) - without the aid of a pole. His proposed "catapult" fills this gap in the jumps. I don't think he's oblivious to the TJ, he seems to consider it as just another horizontal jump without a pole.
Sheehan proposes that Catapult technique would consist of 5 general phases: (1) Approach (run-up), (2) Pole bending, (3) Pole unbending, (4) Push-off and release, and (5) Landing.
These phases follow traditional fiberglass pole vaulting (for height) technique fairly closely. It's the differences that I find intriguing!
During the "Pole unbending" phase, he proposes this:
As the pole unbends and the jumper descends, the elastic potential energy of the pole and the catapulter’s gravitational potential energy are converted back into the kinetic energy. During this phase, it is conceivable that the vaulter could continue to increase his mechanical energy via reaction forces from the ground.
For instance, one can imagine the vaulter pulling down on the pole then letting up on it in a resonantly sequential fashion; that is, to resonantly pump the pole so as to increase his kinetic or gravitational potential energies. Resonant pump of this sort is well known and is used in a number of athletic endeavours, for example, to drive a child’s swing; to ‘pump’ a wave in ocean surfing; and to ‘fishtail accelerate’ in skateboarding.
I can't visualize this. How would this work for horizontal fiberglass pole vaulting any different than for vertical fiberglass pole vaulting? Does this boil down to "double-bouncing"? Triple-bouncing? Will there be sufficient time for "double or triple-bouncing"? I don't think he "gets" the physics of this part of the vault, no matter whether it's horizontal or vertical. I don't think you can just "pull down on the pole then let up on it" repeatedly. It doesn't work that way!
I do see in the "Canal Jumping" vid how the athlete balances on the pole. As he climbs it, his CoG rises, slowing the descent of the pole. This appears to give him ample time for further climbing. But with a bending pole, isn't the entire action going to be quite fast - just as in the vertical PV? There's no time for double-bouncing, is there? When I think of "double-bouncing" all I can visualize is how you bail after a bad takeoff. You hang onto the pole and it bends a second time, just before you ride it safely to the pit. But if you're in the middle of a GOOD horizontal jump, I can't see how you're going to be positioned to "double-bounce".
Sheehan then proceeds to explain how the athlete can shoot off the end of the pole - like a vertical PVer, except in more of a horizontal direction.
In the "Landing" phase, he describes 3 alternate techniques: (1) like a LJer, with 0° rotation, (2) like a PVer, with 180° rotation, (3) like a PVer, but with a full 360° of rotation. He speculates that the 3rd technique would be the most difficult to perfect, but would be the most optimal for reaching maximum distance. I think he's probably nailed this aspect of the catapult, but IMHO it's of marginal importance compared to what you do in the SWING phase. Come to think about it, he doesn't really mention the word "swing", other than the "child swing" analogy in the quote above.
... one expects experimental performances up to roughly 18 m. It is predicted that competition jumps will actually exceed this value because the catapult appears to involve less substantial accelerations and stresses than the pole vault and so mechanical energy losses and inefficiencies should be less severe. It is speculated that competition jumps might exceed 20 m, measured from take-off, or roughly 15 m measured from the plant box, the most likely place for competition measurements. This expectation should influence the size of landing pits, which should radiate outward from the catapult plant box 15–20 m, be sectored like throwing fields (~60° opening angle), and be filled with deep (~0.5 m), well-fluffed sand.
Lastly, he doesn't talk much about SAFETY. He talks about a sand-filled sector "like throwing fields". But I wonder if he really understands that what he's proposing creates a HUMAN PROJECTILE rather than an INANIMATE OBJECT (a shot put) landing in the "throwing field"?
After acknowledging early in the paper of "the lack of large, safe landing pits in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that would have been necessary to contest it", he makes no mention to a viable solution to this, other than a landing pit with "well-fluffed sand". This isn't exactly innovative. That same sand existed in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries!
I pity the poor athlete that tries to train and compete in the CATAPULT whilst also competing in the POLE VAULT. The two just won't mix! In PV, you're taught how NOT to shoot past the end of the pit, whereas in CATAPULT, you're ENCOURAGED and REWARDED to do exactly that!
In CATAPULT, you need to use a SOFT pole, so that you can blow thru to project your body in the horizontal direction, whereas in PV, you need to use a STIFFER pole, so that you DON'T blow thru!
Hmm... I can think of LOTS of reasons why this will never catch on in a traditional ATHLETICS competition.
i can, however, see some potential for it as an EXTREME sport - perhaps in conjunction with a Beach Vault. The vaulters would either land on the [hopefully] soft sand, or perhaps into the water. The entertainment value would be the huge distances that the athletes can potentially jump, and the danger factor. But it can't be so dangerous that normal, good catapults cause injuries.
Really, it's just a new twist on the CANAL JUMPING that's already done in the Netherlands!
Yeh, it's dubious, to say the least. But you know, if this event is ever held on the Pacific Coast, I'LL BE THERE!
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
Return to “Pole Vault - General”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 76 guests