Pole Vault Manifesto

[volteur]

dj

i would have to back up Pogo Stick's points on this issue and say that it doesn't matter about the pole nor the technology, the technique or model is flexible enough in application to take into account varying conditions of which the actual pole jumped on is a minor one. This technical model flexibility is true for any event. The more flexible the model the more consistency the athlete will have. Bubka follows the model his coach taught him and as such has the ability to vary his precise technique on every jump, a quick look through a range of his jumps on youtube will confirm this.

To assume that a model and particularly the one Bubka employs is a fixed and unvarying thing, is to not look deeply enough. Below the level of the model is a set of principles and it is the application of those principles that allows Bubka to have a different jump almost every time and yet still reach the end goal - bar clearance. The same principles can be applied to a stiff pole or the variety of slightly different flexible poles that have been used and these principles do not vary. The only variation is in the specific application of the model they make up.

It seems to be a mistake to lose sight of understanding the model (and the principles contained within) and instead focusing on very small factors like the technology of the poles in use.

[vaultwest]

After being in the business for 20 years all I can say is. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I would direct that comment at everyone including myself about what is or is not the best vaulting pole. After helping to design the equipment Gill used to test poles to develop the fx series of poles and being a part of that effort what I honestly found is that even with that expensive, first time effort ever, to find out how poles actually perform in a scientific manner that we all know very little about what is really going on with vaulting poles. There are just too many variables to capture and the variables we know we should be catching are vary hard to catch with out spending way more money, on sophisticated testing equipment, than any company could rationally spend to actually get those data. Using what equipment we did certainly was a step in the right direction and of course using athletes and coaches to determine what works can give you some results but trying to really define or claim certain knowledge about this complex set of variables that we call pole vaulting is a dangerous path in my opinion.
Vault On

[dj]

good afternoon..

very interesting comments...

i was just relaying my experience and findings... no more or no less than a Tiger Woods would do while testing a varity of differnt golf club designs made of different materials...all the while giving feed back from a variety of results....

enough has been said so i will let it rest....

dj

[Pogo Stick]

dj

i would have to back up Pogo Stick's points on this issue and say that it doesn't matter about the pole nor the technology, the technique or model is flexible enough in application to take into account varying conditions of which the actual pole jumped on is a minor one. This technical model flexibility is true for any event. The more flexible the model the more consistency the athlete will have.

I really like KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle. Your two sentences contains more information than my 2 pages. My broken English... I need to work on that. Thanks Volteur

[volteur]

cheers Pogo, it makes me feel like i'm heading in the direction where Agapit exists

Now where is that man?

[dj]

by volteur on Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:26 pm
i would have to back up Pogo Stick's points on this issue and say that it doesn't matter about the pole nor the technology, the technique or model is flexible enough in application to take into account varying conditions of which the actual pole jumped on is a minor one.

Gill introduces the Carbon Weave pole
by VTechVaulter on Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:07 pm
Heres a little background

This pole has been out for 2-3 years. They are a completely redesigned pole. Gill invested millions into state of the art equipment for this new design. International guys, as well as a few US guys, have been testing them out for the last couple years. Raphael Holdzeppes first 19ft jump was on a carbon weave. Steve lewis has jumped 18'10 on them. Hooker and markov have used them (though dont own a set yet). A handful of other germans have been jumping on them. So the hands on experimentation has been done and everyone loves them. I dont know anyone who has a single bad thing to say about them. They are easier to initially load than a carbon pole of the same flex number, yet deliver the same output up top. Most people need to use 1 pole bigger the first day on them.

I did a little testing on one myself. I was on about a .4 bigger weave, and was getting some big recoil on the top. The thing i most noticed was more time on the bottom and middle to get into better positions, and then took the ride up top. I love them

Plus they are lighter than even carbon poles.

They will still offer their carbon fx pole as well. But once you jump on these, you wont want to go back! Im excited to get my set of 16'9 weaves this winter!!!


OOPPPSS. JUST CHECKED OUT THE LINK ABOVE. sorry if any info is repetitive. still my 02 anyway

think it might be interesting to see what the sail piece looks like in these poles....

dj

[Pogo Stick]

by volteur on Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:26 pm
i would have to back up Pogo Stick's points on this issue and say that it doesn't matter about the pole nor the technology, the technique or model is flexible enough in application to take into account varying conditions of which the actual pole jumped on is a minor one.

Gill introduces the Carbon Weave pole
by VTechVaulter on Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:07 pm
Heres a little background

This pole has been out for 2-3 years. They are a completely redesigned pole. Gill invested millions into state of the art equipment for this new design. International guys, as well as a few US guys, have been testing them out for the last couple years. Raphael Holdzeppes first 19ft jump was on a carbon weave. Steve lewis has jumped 18'10 on them. Hooker and markov have used them (though dont own a set yet). A handful of other germans have been jumping on them. So the hands on experimentation has been done and everyone loves them. I dont know anyone who has a single bad thing to say about them. They are easier to initially load than a carbon pole of the same flex number, yet deliver the same output up top. Most people need to use 1 pole bigger the first day on them.

I did a little testing on one myself. I was on about a .4 bigger weave, and was getting some big recoil on the top. The thing i most noticed was more time on the bottom and middle to get into better positions, and then took the ride up top. I love them

Plus they are lighter than even carbon poles.

They will still offer their carbon fx pole as well. But once you jump on these, you wont want to go back! Im excited to get my set of 16'9 weaves this winter!!!


OOPPPSS. JUST CHECKED OUT THE LINK ABOVE. sorry if any info is repetitive. still my 02 anyway

think it might be interesting to see what the sail piece looks like in these poles....
dj

I never used carbon poles - they became mainstream long after I finished my career.
I know carbon is lighter and stronger than fiberglass only, so you can make lighter pole for the same flex. Even one ounce lighter pole means you can plant little bit easier and be little bit faster at take off. Advantages are obvious to me, but why some top vaulters are still using fiberglass-only poles? Maybe because manufacturers cannot easily match characteristics of fiberglass pole? It is hard to change habits. If new and better pole works differently and/or requires different timing, it takes time to adapt. If benefits are not so clear, why to take risk? It is not metal-or-fiberglass dilemma.

[dj]

good morning

Questions?

1. who has had the talent (speed, size, strength) since gatalin and bubka to jump the record?

2. Who has had the talent and used the Manifesto "Model"?


dj

[volteur]

by volteur on Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:26 pm
i would have to back up Pogo Stick's points on this issue and say that it doesn't matter about the pole nor the technology, the technique or model is flexible enough in application to take into account varying conditions of which the actual pole jumped on is a minor one.

dj

why are you confused?

I never used carbon poles - they became mainstream long after I finished my career.
I know carbon is lighter and stronger than fiberglass only, so you can make lighter pole for the same flex. Even one ounce lighter pole means you can plant little bit easier and be little bit faster at take off. Advantages are obvious to me, but why some top vaulters are still using fiberglass-only poles? Maybe because manufacturers cannot easily match characteristics of fiberglass pole? It is hard to change habits. If new and better pole works differently and/or requires different timing, it takes time to adapt. If benefits are not so clear, why to take risk? It is not metal-or-fiberglass dilemma.

I didn't like carbon poles and so didn't jump on them after trying them out. Actually i never liked pacer. Spirit always felt better. Maybe this was just the pre-bend. Not sure. Now when i pick up both a pacer and a spirit and swap back and forth i would still prefer the spirit. This could be what i was used to but really i think it is the pre-bend. After all it bends in the same direction as the curve along which you plant the pole. It feels like it is heading towards the box already on it's own. Still other than that it's pretty much same same.

good morning

Questions?

1. who has had the talent (speed, size, strength) since gatalin and bubka to jump the record?

2. Who has had the talent and used the Manifesto "Model"?


dj

1. Markov was more athletic than Bubka in the speed and power sense but not in the overall balanced athletic sense. Brits the same.

2. nobody although Gibilisco was closest to Bubka in technique.

[altius]

"who has had the talent (speed, size, strength) since gatalin and bubka to jump the record?"

Victor Chystiakov without a doubt. Unfortunately Victor did not have the patience to master the model.

[IAmTheWalrus]

I'm sorry to be that guy, but who is Gatalin? Oddly I've just never heard that name before.

[KirkB]

... who is Gatalin? Oddly I've just never heard that name before.

Rodion Gataullin (sometimes spelt with a single "l") ... and sometimes without a "u" ...

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=4985