Okay Practice, 10-12-08

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joebro391
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Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:18 pm

okay, here's the latest. i was doing short runs for technique. i honestly am not too happy about these. i had a really hard plyo workout, friday, and yesterday i had to coach for 6 hours, so my legs were rubber. Because my legs felt dead, I STAYED ON SOFT POLES, which was a HUGE mistake, i feel. i ended up blowing through almost every jump so i feel a little...what's the word...dumbfounded??? sure, we'll go with that. EITHER WAY, even though i blew through, i still don't feel i had my 'USUAL' power and strength. Even if my legs were okay, MY HIPS WERE REALLY SLOW MOVING, and caused me to SHOOT OUT.

i made it all pretty, like Kirk wanted, making slides before each jump for reference haha. let me know what you guys think. And yes...on jump 4...i got whacked in the crotch by the bungee :deadrose: :crying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiBDpaxOut0

PS: 1. I feel, that on the jumps where i dropped me drive-knee, i was under by a few inches.
2. I MIGHT HAVE BEEN TUCKING MY CHIN ON SOME OF THEM!!
3. After watching this video, i can see you guys were right; 'V' POSITION SUCKS!! -6P

EDIT: JUMPS 6 & 7 WERE ON 155's, not 150's!!! my bad
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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby powerplant42 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:54 pm

(I will give deeper analysis tomorrow...)

Many of these look pretty decent.

Perhaps you should read my late posts in the 'manifesto' thread about there not being any 'inversion'... there is only a redirection of swing energy. I think it might help.

You do 'V' quite often, and that goes right back to your swing not being 'completed', but I'll give you a break on that due to the tiredness and toothpick poles.

And why was there no stiff poling!? :dazed:

PP (Big Gun :yes: )

Also, on a sidenote, I will be making my first video post very soon! I've been getting some tape of myself in the sand, as well as one of 'my' athletes.
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:07 pm

powerplant42 wrote:(... Also, on a sidenote, I will be making my first video post very soon! I've been getting some tape of myself in the sand, as well as one of 'my' athletes.

I'm very interested in seeing your sand vaults. (And your highbar Hinge Drill. Ha! Ha! :D)

Seriously, I've never heard of sand vaults before this year, so I'm having trouble imagining how they work.

Also, you've recommended Jagodins, and I've now seen 6-Pack (and that other dude) demo them on video. Very interesting, but I'm not convinced that they're a good idea. It seems to me that you have to push with your bottom arm to do this drill, and it doesn't allow you to drive the chest thru enough. Isn't this setting you up for a bad habit? Or is the idea of the drill just to focus on the takeoff, and what happens after that should be ignored?

Since I've never personally done Jagodins, I won't protest too strongly here. I'm just a little pessimistic about them.

Kirk
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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:37 pm

joebro391 wrote: okay, here's the latest ... i still don't feel i had my 'USUAL' power and strength. ...

There's only one thing worse than trying to improve your technique when you're not feeling up to par, and that's critiqueing technique that isn't up to par.

6P, I don't actually see that you're doing as poorly as you say you're doing, but really, it's better to try to work on technique when you're fresh, and to work on conditioning or gymnastics or running or weight-lifting on your "feeling-tired" days. So I'll skip any detailed analysis of these vaults - for that reason only.

Kudos for coaching for 6 hours, but you have your own training to consider too. Can you maybe SIT DOWN when you're coaching? Just a thought.

And after a hard practice (or whenever you've been on your feet for a long time), try to keep your feet elevated in the evening - like on a reclining chair, for example.

joebro391 wrote: i made it all pretty, like Kirk wanted, making slides before each jump for reference haha. let me know what you guys think. ... JUMPS 6 & 7 WERE ON 155's, not 150's!!!

Very, very impressive titling. Now if you could only improve the accuracy of your elegant titling! :)

This makes it really easy for us to understand the metrics of your vaults, without having to flip back to your post between each jump. Thanks for that. I hope it wasn't too much extra work.

joebro391 wrote: And yes...on jump 4...i got whacked in the crotch by the bungee :deadrose: :crying:

I never used a bungee in my day. But I can see a huge timesavings in not having to set up the bar after every miss.

Also, you complain about the nut shot, but believe me, it's far worse with a solid bar. In my day, they were made of triangular aluminium - much less "forgiving" than fiberglass - or soft rubber. If you're feeling really sorry for yourself, take a look at Steve Hooker here, and you won't feel so bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TngAOaK9T4

What's the purpose of TWO bungees? Is the lower one just to catch the pole, or what?

Kirk
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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby Thats.What.She.Said » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:52 pm

KirkB wrote:What's the purpose of TWO bungees? Is the lower one just to catch the pole, or what?

Kirk


other people vaulting that arent going for as high of heights
Lefties are cooler
I ♥ Darren Niedermeyer...NOT love
Put the pole in the hole and EXPLODE

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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:20 pm

TO POWERPLANT: yea...i had a stiff pole (13' 160) that i was using from 1 and 2 but...my coach said it looked like it would do more harm then good, so i went on a pole that i could bend, easily and work on keeping the drive-knee up and trail-leg, back on.

KirkB wrote: 6P, I don't actually see that you're doing as poorly as you say you're doing, but really, it's better to try to work on technique when you're fresh, and to work on conditioning or gymnastics or running or weight-lifting on your "feeling-tired" days. So I'll skip any detailed analysis of these vaults - for that reason only.

yea, i get what you're saying. i just didn't plan on working so long, saturday, but i didn't wanna cancel vaulting, yesterday. but i'm gonna take a day off, and go back to it, thursday, when i'm nice and fresh :yes:

KirkB wrote: Kudos for coaching for 6 hours, but you have your own training to consider too. Can you maybe SIT DOWN when you're coaching? Just a thought.

sadly, i must. but it's okay, i do lots of rope drills and ring-drills inbetween classes (i'll just have to go lighter, when i'm vaulting the next day haha)

KirkB wrote: Very, very impressive titling. Now if you could only improve the accuracy of your elegant titling! :)

haha, yea, it was a little time-consuming, but once i got a system down, it wasn't too bad

KirkB wrote: What's the purpose of TWO bungees? Is the lower one just to catch the pole, or what?

it was for the other kids that don't jump as high, like TWSS, said.

QUESTION: how do you guys feel about my pole selection?? (PP, i've already addressed about this, and now using stiff poles) but what i mean, is more of, do you think i should been on poles 10 pounds heavier so that i could still bend them, and not blow through?? or do you think it was smarter so stay on soft poles, cause it allows things to occur, easier?? (cause the latter was my logic) MORE TO THE POINT, do you feel, that the soft poles aided in me, getting caught in the 'V' position??? let me know. -6P
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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:56 pm

VTechVaulter explained this quite well on the Raise the Grip or Bigger pole? thread here ...

http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=15703&p=116933&hilit=move+up+down+grip+pole#p116933

I think his advice holds for short runs as well as long runs. Make sure you land safely, but try to simulate a "good vault". You should always land far enough into the pit that you don't compromize your technique for fear of stalling out.

If you're working on your technique, don't try to select such a soft pole that you're not trying "your hardest" to jump off the ground or swing. If you don't simulate those 2 parts of your vault as closely as you can to your long run vault, then you're not really working on "good technique", are you!?

I take a little harder stance to this idea than PP does. He says "Practice is not a competition." I say "Try your hardest at all times. Make your training sessions fun and competitive. Make them a competition!" Viva la difference! :yes:

But to get OUT of the habit of getting stuck in the "V", a softer pole will help a bit. The more the pole bends, the more time you have while you feel somewhat "weightless" after the Whip - to get upside-down. Or maybe just work on that issue on the highbar (as we're soon to try, right?).

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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:06 pm

okay, kool kool. yea, i'll have the highbar, rope and ring drills footage up in a few days
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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby powerplant42 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:37 pm

Wow, a lot of stuff to say:

Also, you've recommended Jagodins, and I've now seen 6-Pack (and that other dude) demo them on video. Very interesting, but I'm not convinced that they're a good idea. It seems to me that you have to push with your bottom arm to do this drill, and it doesn't allow you to drive the chest thru enough. Isn't this setting you up for a bad habit? Or is the idea of the drill just to focus on the takeoff, and what happens after that should be ignored?


The focus is on everything before the swing, and staying BEHIND the pole. If you remember, the bottom arm is NOT needed to bend the pole! (But, as a precaution, I have recommended stiff poling for now.) Take a look through BTB2... I don't believe altius ever calls them 'Jagodins', but he references them many times. It is a wonderfully simple, replicative drill that can bust many bad habits without the additional strain of swinging and extending.

TO POWERPLANT: yea...i had a stiff pole (13' 160) that i was using from 1 and 2 but...my coach said it looked like it would do more harm then good, so i went on a pole that i could bend, easily and work on keeping the drive-knee up and trail-leg, back on.


A 13' 160 from 2 steps is really probably right on the fringe of 'stiff' for you. I would have you using something like a 15' 175+, or, if you had it, good ol' Swedish Steel. As said by Bubka, "The bending pole allows you to hide technical mistakes." If you start to stiff pole, you will start to discover how you should really be vaulting... You basically can't be under at take-off, you can't tuck and shoot, you have to plant high, you have to beat the pole... many things are more difficult, yet are, at the same time, so much simpler.

And after a hard practice (or whenever you've been on your feet for a long time), try to keep your feet elevated in the evening - like on a reclining chair, for example.


Or held up to a highbar (when hanging on), so as to excercise the abdominals! ;)

QUESTION: how do you guys feel about my pole selection?? (PP, i've already addressed about this, and now using stiff poles) but what i mean, is more of, do you think i should been on poles 10 pounds heavier so that i could still bend them, and not blow through?? or do you think it was smarter so stay on soft poles, cause it allows things to occur, easier?? (cause the latter was my logic) MORE TO THE POINT, do you feel, that the soft poles aided in me, getting caught in the 'V' position??? let me know. -6P


I say, for at least a month or two, stay off of the poles that you even come close to bending (75% of the time)! But fine, I'll play your way... Get on as 'big' as a pole as you can do safely (consistently landing just past the front edge of the PLZ).

I think his advice holds for short runs as well as long runs. Make sure you land safely, but try to simulate a "good vault". You should always land far enough into the pit that you don't compromize your technique for fear of stalling out.


Thus it is not 'to scale'! :D

I take a little harder stance to this idea than PP does. He says "Practice is not a competition." I say "Try your hardest at all times. Make your training sessions fun and competitive. Make them a competition!" Viva la difference!


Perhaps you don't understand my message: Don't compromise technique in your short run vaults in order to gain an extra 6 inches of height... You could run faster in certain ways, and still save your plant due to still relatively low speeds, but you are not training things well. Do you disagree?

-Big Gun #2
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:16 am

After I posted that, PP, I was thinking that we're not too far apart on this, and we just explained it differently. I'll cover some of this in my "Short Run Vaulting" post (coming soon - to a thread near you!), but just to clarify here a bit ...

Short run vaults are for learning proper technique. I'll repeat that ... SHORT RUN VAULTS ARE FOR LEARNING PROPER TECHNIQUE!

That's why I advise you, 6P, to be fresh when you're focussing on technique.

It's a waste of time to just go thru the motions, if you're tired, injured, or otherwise not starting the practice with the best you got (technique-wise). You should always start out fresh, get in a couple vaults that represent your "best" technique, then start adding to that technique bit by bit, focussing on one aspect of your vault at a time, each vaulter getting better than the last one, then you can't help but improve your technique that day. That's how you make headway in a VAULTING TECHNIQUE practice.

The challenge is to leave the practice with better technique than what you started the practice with.

Now, where the competitive aspect comes in is that during the FIRST part of my practice, I vaulted without a bar. That was for 2 reasons. First, it took too long to keep setting the bar back up if I missed (something that a bungee would take care of today), but secondly - and more importantly - the focus SHOULD NOT BE ON CLEARING BARS, but on IMPROVING YOUR TECHNIQUE.

For the SECOND part of my practice, my coach "rewarded" me and my good, newly learned technique by putting the bar up and letting me try to clear it. This was what I considered the "payoff" part of the practice. I loved to clear bars (don't we all?), so this was the fun, competitive part for me. Sometimes my coach would put the bar up to some ridiculous height, and challenge me to knock it off with my feet. And sometimes he'd put it up to a height that was challenging, but not impossible to clear.

If my technique broke down for any reason, down went the bar, and we re-focused on whatever vault-part broke down. Once that was fixed, back up went the bar.

I refer only to the FIRST part and SECOND part of the practice instead of first half and second half, because there was no set number of vaults in each mode. Really, it was based on my "freshness", and if I had learned anything new or not, and my desire to "test myself" with a bar up.

We often put the bar up when I was just about out of gas, and my coach thought that I'd just take "a couple jumps with the bar up". In practice, what often happened was that I'd get inspired by the bar being up, the adrenalin juices would start flowing, I'd "get my second wind", and I would take sometimes as many as 10 more jumps. I admit that I was the type of vaulter that would plead with my coach at the end of almost every practice "Just one more, coach!". And he'd let me try one more, but then if I missed that bar, I'd say "Just one more" ... and so on, until I was completely out of gas!

It might seem like a paradox that I would vault til I was dog-tired, but it wasn't. I attempted every practice jump like it was my last jump of the day, and I usually had my best jumps of the day on about the 3rd from last jump. So my 2nd last jump was often a miss because I was tired, and my last jump was when I was so dog-tired that my coach and I both decided that I was too tired to improve my technique any more that day.

In this respect, I doubt if I'm much different than what you (6P and PP) each experience in your own practices.

6P, perhaps the one distinct difference was that we vaulted indoors, so no matter how long the practice was, we had lights. Ha! Ha! :D

Kirk
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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby powerplant42 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:33 pm

Lucky...

OK, I am back with my deeper analysis. Let me first start by defining a phrase I've been using for a while.

Limiting factor - any component to training the vault or part of the vault itself that, if remedied, will end with the most benefit. (example: I currently do not have access to a good bar, so I can't work on anything like my swing or extension very readily... this is my limiting factor.)

Joe, your limiting factor USED to be your lead knee dropping. I believe it is now your lack of a LONG swing, that is, not muscling up to inversion... seriously, read my later posts in the 'manifesto' thread on my disbelief in the 'inversion' being what is really at work. It's a little heavy, but if you read it a few times, then you might get at why I'm referring it to you.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4622&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=456 all the way until I start to clarify myself on the topic of pole flexibility (although, you could read that too).
There, I did the work for you! No excuses now!

To my fellow Big Gun...

As soon as you put your short run post up, I will post my videos. Deal? :)
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Okay Practice, 10-12-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:42 pm

kool kool, thanks guys. I'm just gonna say that today i was at the track, doing pole runs and sand-pit drills.

STORY: I had my highschool coach meet me at the track to open up the equipment room, so i could get a stiff pole, to do short runs in the sand pit. the biggest pole i could find was a 14' 145. I WAS REALLY FOCUSING ON KEEPING THE DRIVE KNEE UP AND KEEPING THE TRAIL LEG BACK AND REALLY PUSHING THE RUNWAY AWAY FROM MY BODY. so from 1, i was gripping 9 feet and it felt good. so i went back to 2 Lefts. From 2 Lefts I'm gripping 9'9 and it also feels good. i'm so far, not planting the pole. i'm just keeping it above my head. So that also feels good. So i go back to 3 lefts. my inspiration for this whole thing, was reading the manifesto thread, and then getting linked to Bubka saying that strait poleing = WIN haha (and also how he gripped something like 4.20, straitpoling :crying: . So at 3 Lefts i was gripping 10'3. But i started at like 10' even. i was feeling good, i was keeping the drive knee up, and the trail leg back (also, keeping the chest up). But then, when i went up to 10'3...i started bending the pole. and at first i was like "CRAP!! this made getting the stiffer pole pointless cause i still bend it!" but then i started thinking {thoughts} and i realised "i'm 130 pounds, on a 14' 145, gripping only 10'3, and i'm bending it" as much as it's a drag cause it forces me to not be able to back to 4 Lefts, i felt it an achievment. cause we all know, the only way i managed this, was having that great drive knee, and leaping really well at take-off. :yes:

so let me know what you guys feel about this. in the meantime, i'll be looking for some...who said it?? swedish steel?? or something like that?? hahaha, a stiffer pole, to vault on :P -6P
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