Semantics and Collapsing the Bottom Arm

[joebro391]

so guys, i was just wondering, because this topic has come up, so many times before, and i feel there's been some misunderstandings in the past about preventing the bottom arm from collapsing.

Now, i understand, that usually, it's from being under on the run, or using too stiff of a pole, but what are some other causes?? and i only ask about other possible causes, because in order to understand a solution, i feel you must know the problem to begin with.

Now, aside from possible causes, how does one truely prevent it?? and what i mean by this is, if you're running hard and plant that pole and your step is on, and you get ripped back, how do you prevent it??? my REAL question finally is: How do you find a balance between not letting it collapse (bad) and blocking out your arm??? (also bad) now, i've heard that, for blocking, it's just a matter of the angle at which you keep your bottom arm strait. is this true?? if false, please fill me on on what you guys feel about this topic.

Thank you all in advance. -Joe

[powerplant42]

Hold the pole with your regular grip (should be shoulder width). Put it in the box. Point your bottom elbow out, away from the pole, so that it is definitely out but still comfortable. Push up with your arm as hard as you can. That is what it should be like at take-off. Pushing as hard as you can while keeping your elbow out.

[joebro391]

Hold the pole with your regular grip (should be shoulder width). Put it in the box. Point your bottom elbow out, away from the pole, so that it is definitely out but still comfortable. Push up with your arm as hard as you can. That is what it should be like at take-off. Pushing as hard as you can while keeping your elbow out.

holy crap, i totally forgot about that...very weird considering it's such a main component of the jump. Launder told me about that and explained it to me in detail once and i guess it just sliped my mind.

YOU ARE THE MAN hahahaha

[powerplant42]

New Jersey, huh? I guess you must've went to the Little Egg Harbor clinic he did there this past Summer. I also am assuming he did that demonstration with a 'strong' guy and a 'soft' pole, am I correct? Where he pushes the pole back?

[joebro391]

yea, that's my regular club, iPolevault with dan bertolami and bill hartley. but no, he didn't do the strong guy and soft pole thing. what is that anyway??? i was the "strong" guy that he did all the high-bar drills with but i don't remember and with a soft pole

[KirkB]

Hmm …

Hold the pole with your regular grip (should be shoulder width). Put it in the box. Point your bottom elbow out, away from the pole, so that it is definitely out but still comfortable. Push up with your arm as hard as you can. That is what it should be like at take-off. Pushing as hard as you can while keeping your elbow out.

PP, I’m worried that you might be giving Joebro some bad advice. I found this post from you as well …

On Sun May 04, 2008 …

The bottom arm should be pushing up assertively, but not rigidly like one would do to 'lock out' to force bend. It should be relaxed, but not passive which would allow it to collapse into the vaulter's face.

If that’s your impression of this part of the vault (in May and now), then at least you’re consistent. But we disagree – once again!

I realize that this is an Intermediate Technique thread, but when it comes to what to do with the bottom arm, I think the proper technique is quite agnostic to the proficiency level of the vaulter. Said in a different way, I think that vaulters need to develop good habits as a beginner, and as they advanced thru the intermediate stage to advanced (elite), they will do so with good habits (good technique) intact.

Thus, I feel compelled to tackle this “intermediate” question, as I think it’s a common area of confusion for a lot of vaulters – of all abilities.

I would appreciate it if someone could point me to the appropriate page(s) of BTB2 that describe Launder’s recommendation to “Push as hard as you can while keeping the elbow out”. I’m surprised at Joebro’s comments about that, so I’d like to see Launder’s exact wording. His writing on page 30 of BTB2 dispels the myth “Drive with the bottom arm into the pole at take off”.

Does his writing differ from his clinics? I doubt it! I’m interested in what his cyberspace alter-ego (Altius) might say about this topic!

We’ve had other threads that have discussed the merits of pushing v. collapsing, and I’m firmly in the “collapsing” camp. Or more specifically, I recommend that you don’t do ANYTHING with the bottom arm. Just use it for balance, and let the top arm do all the work.

In the Oklahoma Manifesto thread (and elsewhere), there was a big question about the need to initiate the bend with pressure from the bottom arm. Tim McMichael was arguing that this was necessary, else the pole wouldn’t bend (or it would bend the wrong way). Long story short, Tim actually tried NOT PUSHING with his bottom arm, and published his vids that actually proved himself wrong!

I really admired the way Tim was willing to test his theories, publish his vids, and then admit his findings – even tho they conflicted with his original hypothesis. To put this into proper historical perspective, Tim actually had a very, very good career as an elite vaulter, and part of his technique was to push slightly with his bottom arm on takeoff. To discover by hands-on experimentation – a decade later – that he “was doing it wrong” throughout his career – and admit it – was admirable of Tim. Part of the reason that I mention Tim’s experience about this is to say that even tho you may find examples of good – even elite – vaulters that push with their bottom arm, that doesn’t mean that it’s good technique!

John Pennel is another example. Back in the late 1960s, bending the pole by pushing on it was an acceptable technique. He seemed to be breaking WRs, so he must be doing it correctly, right? Wrong! I tried to copy his technique in high school, and pressing with my bottom arm really screwed my technique up a lot! Once I got to UW, Coach Ken Shannon proved to me that there’s no need for any pressure with the bottom arm – the pole will bend with only pressure from the top arm/hand – and it will bend in the proper direction!

Joebro AND PP, you should search this board for other threads about this topic. I wouldn’t say this topic has been “beat to death”. Rather, I would say that there’s apparently still confusion about it, so it deserves further study and discussion.

There’s a related issue here, and that’s the Petrov model v. tuck-and-shoot model issue. If you truly believe that tuck-and-shoot is the way to go, and if you really want to load the pole BEFORE TAKEOFF, then maybe – MAYBE – there’s an argument for pushing with the bottom arm. However, ASSUMING that we’re talking Petrov model here, and ASSUMING that you want to strive for a free takeoff, and ASSUMING that you want to have a “continuous chain” swing thru to inversion (no tuck/shoot), then pushing or pressing with the bottom arm – even to the slight extent that PP recommends – is just plain wrong.

I will back off from this opinion only if I’ve misunderstood the Petrov model, the Continuous Chain Model, or the 6.40 model. Even then, I will only back off to that extent. I will maintain that any cognizant pressure at all with the bottom arm is NOT part of the Bryde Bend style (a variant of the Petrov model).

To repeat …

The bottom arm should be pushing up assertively, but not rigidly like one would do to 'lock out' to force bend. It should be relaxed, but not passive which would allow it to collapse into the vaulter's face.

I don’t see how you can be relaxed and not passive. Or inversely, if you’re “pushing up assertively”, then you can’t be “relaxed” or “passive”.

In the GOAL and PASSIVE PHASES sections of the Continuous Chain Model thread here: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.phpf=38&t=16118&p=116571&hilit=bottom+push#p116571 Roman Botcharnikov says:

… in order to improve performance one should minimize these passive phases, trying to eliminate them … Some of the common passive phases are: chest penetration, pushing the pole by the left arm …

My recommendation is to just let the top arm do all the work, and just use the bottom arm/hand for balance (and even then, ever so slightly). The pole will NOT collapse into your face, because it will bend out of the way before that happens!

This is a difficult concept to grasp – it took me over 3 years to “get it”. (With good coaching and good advice, you can shorten this drastically – down to just days or weeks at the most.) But once you “get it”, you will find that your entire vault (once you leave the ground) will improve to a harmonious, continuous chain of actions – from takeoff thru to extension and beyond!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

If McMichael tested his 'one-arm' theory to no avail, why is there any discrepency here? Why use a narrow grip if not to 'push up' with both hands at take-off? I see where you're coming from, and perhaps in my post in May my message is a little too ambigious, but my previous post in this thread is not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsHMcmPxsT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FILObFtp ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvg2EPto ... re=related
Arm?

This is not a passive phase... it is in fact just the opposite! I'm saying, "Drive the pole up at take-off as hard as you can with both hands and a 'bent out' bottom arm!" not "Drive into the pole with a bent arm to create a bend!"... I'm not totally sure if we DO disagree on this.

(Wow, I'm disagreeing about us disagreeing... )

[KirkB]

Hmm … I didn't understand why Joebro named this thread "Semantics and Collapsing the Bottom Arm", because he never mentioned anything about semantics.

Then, I think I misread your posts, due to "semantics".

In your reply above you didn't respond with a better explanation, but with links to vids of Bubka and Isi. So I began to rethink what you meant. At first I thought you were arguing that the vids proved that they actually pushed their bottom arm on takeoff. But then after you saying that we're not in disagreement, I re-read your 2 posts.

Here they are again, with one slight wording change ...

Hold the pole with your regular grip (should be shoulder width). Put it in the box. Point your bottom elbow out, away from the pole, so that it is definitely out but still comfortable. Reach up with your arm as hard as you can. That is what it should be like at take-off. Reaching as hard as you can while keeping your elbow out.

... and ...

On Sun May 04, 2008 …

The bottom arm should be reaching up assertively, but not rigidly like one would do to 'lock out' to force bend. It should be relaxed, but not passive which would allow it to collapse into the vaulter's face.

So does that still convey your idea of what to do with the bottom arm on the plant/takeoff?

If it does, then we're in full agreement! The one little word "reach" instead of "push" makes all the difference! Semantics!

The action you were describing (in MY way of thinking) was part of the PLANTING action (pre-takeoff), rather than part of the TAKEOFF action (during or immediately AFTER takeoff).

p.s. I thought you misinterpreted Tim's point too. But if I change your reply above to:

Why use a narrow grip if not to 'REACH up' with both hands at take-off?

... then we're in full agreement! What a difference a single word makes!

I reread the "We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness" thread. Here's some highlights ...

On page 7 of it, Tim sez:

... more I think about it, the less it seems possible from a physics standpoint. The angles and lines of force just don't add up to the middle of the pole beginning to deflect without some input from the bottom arm. I will gladly concede that that input does not need to be interpreted as a "push," especially if it means a blocking action. …

Still on page 7 – a little further down – he sez:

... I think it is absolutely fair to say that I am not pushing, but as my previous post suggests, I still believe that the left arm serves a vital purpose in starting the middle of the pole moving. The purpose of my experiment is to explore exactly what that is. I’ve got some ideas, but I will have to do some more thinking (and jumping). If it turns out that I don’t need to have the left hand on the pole at all - throughout the entire plant and takeoff - I will be the first to say so, but if not, I’m going to try to find the language that will accurately describe what is happening. I think that beginning from the extreme minimum will help.

Then, still unconvinced, on page 15, Tim sez:

Until you can show me someone who can plant their competition pole without their bottom hand on the pole throughout the entire plant - and I am not talking about taking it off after the pole has started bending; any good vaulter can do that, and it is a good demonstration that the bottom arm is not necessary to keep the pole moving; I am also not talking about a small pole that can be dropped into the box so that it rebounds out of a negative bend and starts moving that way; I am talking about having the bottom hand off of a BIG pole BEFORE it hits the back of the box - I will continue to maintain that the bottom arm plays a role in starting the pole bending.

This is not the same thing as pushing with the bottom arm after the pole has started moving.

Then on page 16, Tim quotes Petrov quite nicely:

The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it FIRMLY towards the bar and THEN transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support.

And on page 17:

I hate to be so hardcore about this, but in all fairness, I have never said anything that I could not also demonstrate. I have backed up everything I have insisted on with video evidence. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask the same courtesy …

He sure has!

And on page 18:

The bottom arm first applies the minimal amount of pressure necessary to cause the pole to bend.

Finally, further down on page 18:

Okay, I give up. I'm having to work too hard to hold my position. I just spent some time talking to Bruce Caldwell who has been making poles forever, and he assured me that with a great takeoff the bottom hand did not need to be on the pole at all. So, I give.

But then you – Powerplant42 – ask:

However, does a good take-off need a bottom arm? I am not convinced that this particular discussion is over.

And Tim answers:

You need it for balance, but with a great takeoff, the pole will bend without it.

This was really quite the thread! To get all the nuances, you must read the entire thread. But I’ve given you the highlights that are pertinent to the discussion at hand.
I must say that despite conceding this point on pressing with the bottom arm, Tim brought up many, many very, very good points. Again, you must read that whole thread.

It’s a good read!

Kirk

[vaultman18]

The bottom arm is not needed to bend the pole. But it is needed to plant the pole properly and provide balance. One very large problem for most vaulters (especially beginner - intermediate) is the plant and take-off tend to overlap too much. If a vaulter is under and planting late the bottom arm becomes more important. If the plant is low and late the bottom arm must apply significant pressure to get the pole out of the vaulters face. The bottom arm can only push while the vaulter is still on the ground (not Free).

With a proper pole-drop, plant action and free take-off the bottom arm will provide upward pressure only in the plant action. The plant will end as the take-off foot leaves the ground (plant is over and take-off begins) so the bottom arm is no longer pushing. Once the take-off has begun the vaulter can't push any long without going into a passive phase.

So to recap: bottom arm pushes up in plant only
bottom arm does not push after take-off
If the take-off and plant overlap the the bottom arm will push during take-off due to the plant not being finished

[powerplant42]

"Continue to try to push the pole upwards once you have taken off." -Bubka

What do those words mean if not exactly that? (You can find the exact quotation in BTB2.) What do you say the difference is between 'pushing' and 'reaching'?

What did Petrov say in his 1985 speech about this issue? (I have lent BTB2 to one of 'my' athletes, so I honestly do not know.)

I am beginning to question myself, and it feels good! But I am not ready to roll over yet. It is almost an incontrovertible fact that the bottom arm plays a role in the pole bending. (BEFORE YOU FREAK OUT, KEEP READING...) If the bottom arm pushes at all, especially once the pole has hit the back of the box, it is affecting the bend in what I believe to be a non-negligible fashion... it may be very small though. (Remember, I'm ON YOUR SIDE! I don't advocate locking and blocking, I'm just discussing what factors might be at work.) Any time it pulls back, it also influences how the pole bends. I'm just now thinking that if one truly does 'push as hard as they can with the elbow out' right before take-off, the pole tip will move up... But what about during take-off? Again, what is different about 'reaching'?

[vaultman18]

I think Agapit covers extending the arms "especially the top". I think said something like growing through take-off. Pole angle is a factor as how extended the the bottom arm can be. I do believe this is getting out of the realm of "Intermediate Technique".

So to the original poster. You should strive to have a better run, plant and take-off always.

[Rhino]

"Continue to try to push the pole upwards once you have taken off." -Bubka

Definitely push the pole upwards. Do it with your top hand.