The Bryde Bend (Jump to the Split)

[KirkB]

Post #20 - Request for Feedback

Now that I've described my Bryde Bend model, I would appreciate your feedback on its categorization in comparison to other modern day pole vaulting models (or model variants).

To me, the backwards lifting of my trail leg sounds similar to what Tim McMichael described in his Oklahoma Manifesto – the Joe Dial model. However, McMichael describes a long swing and then a tuck/shoot, whereas I definitely did not shorten my trail leg radius after passing the chord. I purposely kept it long, and I only bent at the hips. There was no need to shorten my radius that way.

I don’t think my vault is very similar to Brad Walker’s. He doesn’t lift the trail leg back, and he tucks/shoots, whereas I didn’t. However, our long, vigorous trail leg swings look similar. I haven’t done a video comparison, but the Joe Dial model sounds quite similar to Brad Walker’s technique, except that Walker doesn’t cognizantly lift the trail leg back – as McMichael describes in his Oklahoma Manifesto.

My accentuated "C" position sounds like it’s close to Bubka's, except that it's tilted back (away from the pit) a bit more - I had more forwards lean in my "C" because I purposely jumped off the ground that way, and I purposely lifted my trail leg back. That may be the main difference between my technique and the Petrov model, but I leave others more knowledgeable in this area to be the judge of that.

I don't think the Bryde Bend can be categorized as a variant of the 6.40 model, because I bent at the hips in the last part of my swing. I depended on the straightening of my hips during the first part of my extension, which I would lose if my hips were aligned with my body in an "I" position throughout the swing. But I leave this categorization for Roman to judge - since the 6.40 model is his to explain.

Please understand that I would first like to hear a proper categorization of the Bryde Bend in comparison to other models or model variants.

Assuming that we can reach some kind of consensus or agreement on that, I would then be interested in discussing the pros and cons of each model or variant compared to mine – with anyone that’s interested.

I’m aware of some of my technique's deficiencies (or maybe they're just my own personal limitations), and I will disclose those in due course.

But first, I would really like to categorize it (my model variant) and then I would like y’all to scrutinize it – if you think it’s worthy of your time to do so.

Thanks for taking the time to read about my 1971-72 Bryde Bend pole vaulting model! And thanks in advance for your feedback!

Kirk Bryde

[fx]

Hey Kirk, will the extreme forward lean at takeoff not lower your CoG?

[KirkB]

fx, in theory, it would, but only marginally - by millimetres. Not enough to worry about.

You need to shorten your last stride(s) and "gather" a bit for your takeoff anyway (even if you're trying to run tall on takeoff), so the lean is part of that. At least that's the way I did it.

Once you take off, your posture in the Split is the key. There, you may also have a slightly lower CoG - but again, too miniscule to matter. Your posture in the Split depends more on your takeoff angle than anything else.

What's far more important is your speed and angle on takeoff and your posture in the split. The forwards lean on takeoff and into the Jump to the Split gives you those.

To say this another way, I found that I gained more than a foot (0.35m) by my Jump to the Split. That's a NET GAIN after lowering my CoG by 5mm (just a guess) on my takeoff!

My assertion is that better athletes than me will gain much, much more than a foot if they do it right.

Kirk

[volteur]

still reading Kirk!

[jcoover]

Kirk -

I very much enjoy reading this. I have many questions, but here is the first:

Let's first consider a long jumper who jumps off of their right foot (for the sake of using Carl Lewis as and example). When they are leaving the ground, the left knee is driven, the chest is tall, the arms are driving through, and the force through the right leg is pushing DOWN and BACK on the runway, in order to effectively propel the jumper UP and FORWARD. This force on the ground also created the reverse C off of the ground. The foot is pushing back, and as soon as the jumper's bodyweight is not connected to the ground, the foot has nothing to push against and continues backward, creating the stretch position. (NOTE: Never in this post will I talk about creating the stretch/C position. It is something that should happen naturally, should the vaulter leave the ground correctly) Essentially, this is the point in the jump where the connection between long jumping and pole vaulting caeses to exist. Let's look at Carl Lewis here about three to four feet off of the ground, IMO only a few milliseconds past the point at which the LJ + PV connection stops.



As you can see, the right leg is stretched backward, the knee is driven, and the angle of the torso is nearly 90 degrees. As you can see, Mr. Lewis has a slight bend in the left knee here, with the left heel coming up a bit, creating the start of "the split". Here is where my question lies. From this position, a long jumper (assuming bicycle technique) MUST track his heel in a circular motion through the air, forcing him to pull the heel to the gleut, and cycle the heel through, thus FORCING him to create, at some point, the "split" position.

Here is Carl a few frames later demonstrating a nice heel tracking motion with the right heel.



There is no good image of Lewis in the split position, but you can imagine that between those two photos, the jumping heel must have tracked from stretched back to up (creating "the split") and then forward.

And finally, my question. In the pole vault, is this motion NECCESSARY, or EFFICIENT? Do you, or anyone else, see the act of performing "the split" as a "Passive Phase", which most agree should be eliminated from the vault? When a vaulter puts himself in the position that Carl has demonstrated quite nicely in the first image from the shoulders down, (which should occur naturally should the vaulter take off of the ground correctly) is the most efficient movement then not to simply swing the trail leg through instead of wasting time raising the takeoff heel up at some point, creating "the split"? By simply taking off of the ground correctly, the takeoff heel naturally flows backward, creating the C position, but shouldn't the vaulter only be thinking about releasing from that position with a whipping trail leg swing?

As you have noticed by now, I love using pictures, so I will use one more to finish off. I found this amazing overlay frame-by-frame of a gymnast performing a giant and thought it would be great food for thought here. As you can see, the knees never bend and the gymnast is creating all sorts of energy through the bottom of the swing, the way that any vaulter could by using the "whip" motion through the bottom and eliminating passive phases.



Thank you so much for sharing on here, I have thoroughly enjoyed all of your posts, they are so fun to think about!!! I hope that you answer this question and don't think that I am attacking The Byrd Bend. I find it FASCINATING that you were able to use it so effectively and I find it inspirational that you spend your time teaching it to others!![/u]

[KirkB]

Thank you so much for sharing on here, I have thoroughly enjoyed all of your posts, they are so fun to think about!!! I hope that you answer this question and don't think that I am attacking The Byrd Bend. I find it FASCINATING that you were able to use it so effectively and I find it inspirational that you spend your time teaching it to others!!

Jeff,

Thanks for your reply. I try to describe how a vault "feels", rather than taking a theoretical approach. But I also think that the technique that I applied was based solidly on the laws of physics, and I will mention that where relevant. I hope this writing style works for you.

BTW, I've lived with typos and mispronunciations of my last name all my life, so yours is no different. But please, even tho I did acquire the nickname "Birdman Bryde" during my college years, my name is spelt BRYDE.

In Greek mythology, Icarus - son of Daedalus - flew too close to the sun, so the wax holding his feathers in place melted, and he crashed back to earth. Even tho I didn't fly too close to the sun, I sorta had a few similar experiences!

Now to try to answer your question ...

The first pic of Carl Lewis looks like a fairly good "split". The camera angle's a little weird, but I'm surprised how far back his trail leg is. If he was a vaulter doing a "Jump to the Split", I'd say "not bad!". His trail leg knee is bent, however. As you say, if we saw this pic from the side of the takeoff board, we'd probably see that his torso is 90° - not a forwards lean. To do the "bicycle" long jump technique and end up on his feet, he CAN'T lean forwards. On the contrary, in the Bryde Bend, you should lean forwards a bit.

We're comparing long jumping to vaulting here - a bit like comparing apples to oranges - but I get your point, and I do agree that the laws of physics on takeoff apply equally to both.

I also get your point of never "creating" the "C". You say it should just happen naturally if you drive off the ground correctly - whether you're a vaulter or long jumper. More on that later.

Then you said:

From this position, a long jumper (assuming bicycle technique) MUST track his heel in a circular motion through the air, forcing him to pull the heel to the gleut, and cycle the heel through, thus FORCING him to create, at some point, the "split" position.

You lost me here, as I can't find "gleut" in the dictionary, and I'm not sure what you mean by "cycle the heel through". To me, your first pic of Lewis is clear enough (a fairly good split), and your second pic is irrelevant. Can you clarify?

Maybe what you're getting at is that it's "natural" to stretch back and up by your drive off the ground, so you shouldn't have to lift it up any more than what's "natural". By looking at Lewis' first pic, it certainly looks like (albeit a bad camera angle) his trail leg has lifted (more than I would have expected from a long jumper). I'm not sure why a long jumper would strive for that.

In the Bryde Bend, I'm saying that I purposely lifted it up EVEN MORE.

But I'll let you clarify your question first, then I'll respond. I can explain it a little better, but I don't want to get too far ahead of your real question. Can you please rephrase it?

Kirk

[Pogo Stick]

Kirk -

As you have noticed by now, I love using pictures, so I will use one more to finish off. I found this amazing overlay frame-by-frame of a gymnast performing a giant and thought it would be great food for thought here. As you can see, the knees never bend and the gymnast is creating all sorts of energy through the bottom of the swing, the way that any vaulter could by using the "whip" motion through the bottom and eliminating passive phases.



[/u]

As you know gymnast get points for both difficulty of performed elements and for technical execution (artistic). Knees are not bend because this means couple tenth of points lower score for not-perfect visual (artistic) performance. Giant swing is pretty easy to perform with perfect straight legs, but if you look frame-by-frame images of some other complicated elements like Tkachev, Kovacs (I like this one) accelerated giant, you will se bending knees, "L position" and lot of other things. Few examples can be found here:
http://www.gymworld.org/elements.htm
Luckily for us, we do not get any points for artistic performance, so we are free to use the most efficient movements. All we need is to find out which one is the best.

[volteur]

As you know gymnast get points for both difficulty of performed elements and for technical execution (artistic). Knees are not bend because this means couple tenth of points lower score for not-perfect visual (artistic) performance. Giant swing is pretty easy to perform with perfect straight legs, but if you look frame-by-frame images of some other complicated elements like Tkachev, Kovacs (I like this one) accelerated giant, you will se bending knees, "L position" and lot of other things. Few examples can be found here:
http://www.gymworld.org/elements.htm
Luckily for us, we do not get any points for artistic performance, so we are free to use the most efficient movements. All we need is to find out which one is the best.

This is so true and i'm thankful for being in a sport that is objective, that doesn't have shades of grey.

But your post made me think that even though artistic factors do sometimes prevent pure efficiency, the fundamentals that are exposed through gymnastics are as efficient as humanly possible. The pic of the giant is a perfect example.

When the gymnast is at the bottom position the chest is naturally leading her through and soon after this point the feet take over and lead the movement all the way around until the point when the chest takes over again - this seems to be 45 degrees back from vertical but that specific frame is missing. Does anyone know then this occurs? Also i think the feet take over from the chest at 45 degrees past the vertical, just like on the pole. Is this 45 degrees a fundamental?

cheers

volteur

ps do you think that the accelerated giants etc are possible on a pole?

[KirkB]

Becca gave me my copy of “From Beginner to Bubka – 2nd Edition” at the Alki Beach Vault in Seattle on July 5, and I have now read the first 7 chapters. So far, I have not discovered anything new that I did not know or practice in 1971-72.

However, in my quest to help standardize our vernacular, I wish to align my terminology a bit with that of Alan Launder and John Gormley – co-authors of the book. I also think I can clarify the important “parts” of my vault a little better – to distinguish important parts, and to merge parts that occur somewhat simultaneously. I hope these wording changes help to clarify, rather than “muddy the waters”. I will not edit any previous posts. I will only clarify in this post, and subsequent ones (when further clarification is needed).

For starters, I’ve decided to change my tagline. You will now notice that “The sky’s the limit!” has gone, and in its place, my tagline is now:

“Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Hinge. Swing. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. THERE IS NO ROCKBACK OR TUCK!”.

Now to explain …

Each of these single-word sentences is an action-oriented verb. You can think of these as you train and vault. So “Split” means “jump to the split position”, just as I’ve described in previous posts. The next 4 one-word sentences require some explanation. Combined, they describe the exact same actions as my previous posts. However, the emphasis is different.

“Hinge” means “hinge at the hips”. In my previous posts, I didn’t describe that very well. And in all the talk about “swinging” by others on this forum – including Altius and Agapit – there’s a lack of emphasis of this. Everyone seems to be talking only about swinging from the fulcrum of the top hand. In fact, there’s 2 fulcrum’s – the top hand, and the hips. One could argue that the initial swing rotates around the top hand, and the “tap swing” is the part of the swing that rotates around the hips. So I could have switched the order of “Hinge” and “Swing”. Another argument might be that they happen more-or-less simultaneously. However, I prefer to reference these 2 actions by how they “felt” to me as a vaulter, rather than how they “looked”. To me, the swing about the top hand was a passive action – it just happened. But the swing about the hips was a cognitive action. I purposely lifted the trail leg back and up, then swung it forwards vigorously ABOUT THE HIPS. This is what I mean by “Hinge”. It’s just a different word that distinguishes it from “Swing”. So my new terminology is that a “Swing” refers to rotating about the top hand, whereas a “Hinge” refers to rotating about the hips.

Now the “Whip” action word …

I mean this in exactly the same way as Launder/Gormley describe in BTB2. I have referred to it variously as snap/whip/pop, but “Whip” is probably the best of the 3, and is already a familiar term to most vaulters. This whip is the “tap swing” part of the vault that has already been discussed by all of us. So I’ll go with “Whip”. The only difference is that it was more pronounced in the Bryde Bend – due to the trail leg lift.

The sequence of “Hinge. Swing. Whip.” does NOT infer that there’s no Swing after the Whip. The Whip occurs near the shortest point in the chord length, but the Hinge and the Swing occur both before and after the Whip. I’m just saving a couple words.

Now “Extend” …

I had to think about this one a bit. I used to call it “Shoot” back in my vaulting days, but the word “shoot” now has a new meaning – as in tuck/shooters. I don’t think I was aware of that technique back in my day, so I certainly never intended that meaning. So I want to take that word out of my terminology.

I also used the word “Invert” previously. That word can be used as a verb to describe the action of inverting. However, IMHO it’s a rather passive verb. It’s just something that happens, rather than something you consciously do when vaulting. For that reason, it’s a bad word to use. I think the verb “Extend” is a better word to describe the action that you want to consciously do in training and when vaulting.

In Chapter 7, Launder/Gormley refer to:

3. The hip punch / shoulder drive.
4. The spiral turn and push off the pole.

If I followed this terminology, I could have shortened it to “Punch/Drive. Turn/Push".

However, as these esteemed authors clarify themselves on page 49:

The precise nature of the timing involved in these final stages of the vault is such that … elite coaches and athletes might do well to think of the vault as comprising only 3 stages where the 3rd and 4th stages are compressed into one continuous movement – so tightly are they linked at this point in the vault.

So alternatively, I could have said “Invert. Extend.” or “Punch/Drive. Extend.” But I want to emphasize the “one continuous movement” idea, so I’ll now call it simply “Extend”. By that one word, I mean all of the above. You will find in my previous posts that I referred to straightening the body to an “I” position whilst sinking/dropping the shoulders. I don’t find the phrases “hip punch” or “shoulder drive” very descriptive of those actions, but now that I know what they mean in BTB2, I mean the same thing. I kind of like their term “shoulder drive” because it sounds more active than “sink” or “drop” – which sounds too passive. Believe me, it’s a vigorous action – not passive at all! So “Extend” now covers all these sub-actions.

Now the verb “Fly” …

I never referred to this one before, but there is a distinct time separation between the Extend and the Clear (bar clearance). So this is the Fly. I used to think of it as the “fly-away” phase, but that term also connoted your body posture DURING and AFTER bar clearance. By “Fly”, I now mean only BEFORE “Clear”. Quite frankly, my handstand was only 34” (but should have been > 46”), so this wasn’t a big deal on my vaults. However, once you get into the stratosphere, I think a vaulter needs to have a good word to describe what he's doing during this part of his vault. He’s off the pole by then; at the mercy of gravity; and of course he doesn’t literally “fly” - the words “Soar” or “Glide” might be more factual. But he needs to prepare his body posture for an optimal bar clearance. The higher the bar, the more patience (pause) you need during the “Fly”.

Notice that I didn’t use the terms “Rockback” or “Tuck” at all. These words just aren’t in my dictionary anymore. Back in the day, I did use the term Rockback, but only because it was a popular term back then to describe the action of inverting on the pole. In the Bryde Bend technique, I didn’t actually rock back. My Whip continued with more Swing, and then blended immediately into the Extend. If you look at my pic on “Post #5 – the Start of My Extension”, you’ll see this. My trail leg has already extended – it’s caught up to my trail leg.

So there you have it: “Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Hinge. Swing. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. THERE IS NO ROCKBACK OR TUCK!”.

What do you think?

Kirk Bryde

[jcoover]

Mr. Bryde,

First, I apologize for the misspelling of your name. I suppose I should explore the possibility of a mild case of Dyslexia. My most sincere apologies.

Now let's get down to business.

You lost me here, as I can't find "gleut" in the dictionary, and I'm not sure what you mean by "cycle the heel through". To me, your first pic of Lewis is clear enough (a fairly good split), and your second pic is irrelevant. Can you clarify?

Before we get to the vault though, I must again shamefully apologize for misplacing yet ANOTHER letter in my post. I should be ashamed of the fact that in a 650 word post I so horrifically misspelled a word. What I meant was "GLUTE", which is of course an athletic-slang term for the Gluteus, a group of three large muscles in the buttock.

Now to your question. What I mean by "cycle the heel through" is the action that any runner uses to track the heel from the ground up to the buttock, forward and then back to the ground. Of course there could (and maybe should) be an entire topic detailing proper heel tracking technique. I hope this clears up what I meant by "cycling the heel through".

The second part of your question was the relevance of the second image. The second image exists only because I think that the first image is a few hundredths of a second too late to exemplify a proper trail leg takeoff position. Lewis's heel has come up a bit intentionally in the first image, which I believe is a flaw in the vault. The second image exists only to explain why lewis's heel needs to come up into the split position. In order to "bicycle" through the air and reach the optimal position illustrated in the second image, Carl's heel MUST come up toward the buttock. In the vault, however, we do not need to worry about cycling the left leg back through, and instead must focus on exactly the opposite, switching the direction of movement of the left heel and whipping it through the bottom much like the image of the giant that I attached. So the point is this: is raising the left heel in a manner demonstrated by Carl Lewis in the first image a waste of energy if we as vaulters don't need to attain the position that long jumpers strive for represented by the second picture?


Finally, I must point out that comparing the Long Jump to the Vault is NOT like comparing Apples and Oranges. You will see references to the long jump in several topics on this message board!

Once again, thanks so much for the riveting, thought-provoking posts and I appreciate your reply!!! Thanks!

[jcoover]

P.S. I AGREE!! THERE IS NO ROCKBACK OR TUCK!!!

[KirkB]

Jeff,

All apologies accepted!

I suspected that "gleut" was a butt-muscle, but I wanted to be sure.

My opinion is that LJ is like PV only to the point before the pole hits the back of the box. Then, the similarity ends.

As far as "cycling the heel thru", I cannot honestly say that I was very cognizant of what the heel of my lead knee was doing. It certainly wasn't extending forwards (like a hurdler), but I have no recollection of purposely bringing it up to my butt. Since I never thought about that, it would probably be in a "natural" position under/behind the lead knee, as a result of my Jump to the Split. The thighs were split, but I can't say exactly where my lead ANKLE was. I was more concious of what my lead KNEE was doing, and making sure that it STAYED UP when the pole hit the box.

I just read up to Chapter 8 of BTB2 today, though, and Launder does emphasize that Bubka purposely kept his heel directly beneath his butt and braced for the impact of the pole so that he was rigid when it hit. (Bubka might not have stressed that point while he was vaulting either. i.e. No vaulter intent. It might be just Launder analyzing his vids that way.)

I would guess that my heel was probably fairly high too, and I definitely braced for the impact (that's what the Split is - a "freeze" on impact). In my mind, the "rigid body on impact" idea was of prime importance, as I looked on any drop of the trail leg as "leakage of the system".

Honestly, it baffles me how Lukyanenko can drop his lead knee and still vault 6.01!

I hope I answered your questions.

BTW, I watched your vid! Nice!

Kirk