Mid Mark Chart

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PVstudent
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Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:27 am

This is the follow on from my previous post:

The table for the heights and masses of the currently listed male an female vaulters in the world top twenty pole vaulters show their height to be very similar (homogeneous: variance is very small in range for each gender but relatively larger across genders). The most frequently occurring height for females is 170 cms and males 188cms (difference of approximately 7 inches).

Given that limb lengths do have proportional length relationship to standing height then standing on the takkeoff leg toe tip, the maximum vertical reach attainable is related in proportion to stature. Grip length along the pole and the maximum vertical reach by the uppermost part of the top hand are the fundamental geometric determinants of the distance out from the back of the box of the takeoff point, when the tip of the pole is held in the back of the box at a particular grip length and vaulter is at maximum vertical reach height..

The expertise level of the vaulter therefore becomes the variable parameter that enables the vaulter to grip further along the pole and, all other things being equal, enable the vaulter to takeoff at a greater distance out from the back of the box whilst assuming a postural configuration that provides close to maximum vertical reach height. Hence the interaction between expertise and stature becomes the key causative relationship between effective grip length along the pole and the takeoff point location distance out from the back of the box. Not surprisingly then does one find strong similarities between vaulters gripping along the pole at the same length and the distance out,from the back of the plant box, at which they takeoff. At world class level, where athletes can be assumed to be performing close to the upper limits of their capacity, they will tend to be relatively homogeneous in stature and stature dependent measures.

As one samples closer to the upper or lower tail of the normal curve of distribution for any performance parameter measures, the smaller the variance becomes between individual cases in that sample in the normal distribution on those measures. For data to be robust in dealing with a wide variation of the measures the sample has to be representative of the population it wishes to make predictions about ie a representative sample will have a variance range that is similar to that expected to occur in the population based on laws of probabilty. DJ has developed the chart based on selected small sampling of quite similar vaulters and levels of expertise and used the data assuming linearity of relationships based on astute observation and on the ground measurement.

The sampling and sample variance therefore is relatively small and hence DJ's generalizing of his results to the entire poulation of vaulters of all sizes and levels of expertise is an endeavour fraught with hazard, especially when applied to particular cases. This is not to say that he is not able to give a "ball park" prediction as to where a particular 6 step check mark should be for a particular individual. The size of the ball park in relation to the precise location of the 6 step mark is the measure of the robustness of the prediction reliability in relation to the chart and a specific individual.

All of the above I hope will have cleared the ground to establish why the Dartfish video example put up leads to correct observation but false conclusions and the positing of a flawed theory.

The table below shows the time for the last 6 steps calculated on the basis of average speed over the 6steps divide by the average step length (average step length is the distance from takeoff to the 6 step check mark divided by 6 steps). Also shown is the number of frames required for each vaulter to complete the 6step to takeoff when viewed at 30, 60, and 120 frames or pictures per second (pps).

Code: Select all

              6 step time   30  60  120
                seconds    pps pps  pps

Female  4.20m    1.442      43  87  173
Male    5.30m    1.449      43  87  174
Male    5.70m    1.446      43  87  174
Bubka   6.10m    1.356      41  81  163
Mack    5.90m    1.381      41  83  166

The frame rates are for NTSC standard rates for video capture and playback.

The data show that is not possible to differentiate between the variables of interest (especially step rate) in the performances of Bubka and Mack with any confidence until the original video is recorded at 60pps. It is possible to de interlace the video taken at 30 frames per second and produce a playback at the equivalent of 60 frames per second. This still only gives a time resolution of + - 0.0167 seconds and not the 0.001 seconds claimed! For the female and the male to be confidently differentiated with respect to the step rate and length, the original video would need to have been recorded at at least 120 frames(pps) to be confident about the observed similarities or differences. In a nutshell, at 30pps it is not possible to see with any confidence known differences in step length and rates between individuals who are relatively similar in grip length on the pole.

Other factors related to the recording of the original video source material also confound the problems of using Dartfish in this way.

DJ and others can be forgiven because the visual effect of the video is indeed very powerful and easily misleads those holding shared beliefs in regard to Grip height and the 6 step check mark invariant relationship.

Dartfish was used like a drunk uses a lampost for support rather than illumination!

Although not done to intentionally mislead, it is my contention that the inferrences that have been drawn from the video evidence are fallacious.

Therefore my conclusion remains that DJ's chart is a useful working tool to be used with care and the recognition it is not a panacea to cure all ills associated with the approach run in pole vault.

(Edit on 6-19-08 was to make chart columns functional.)
Last edited by PVstudent on Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby dj » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:20 am

hello

no "forgivness" necessary there just continues to be a misconception of how speed and stride length are created..

first the leg length is not a factor.. greene had a one half inch per stride longer than carl lewis in there world record runs.. greene was faster

Quinon in the 84 olympics had a longer distance from the coaches mark than tully and bell, he was faster but shorter..

if the athlete is running correctly, which means with more force and less ground time there strides will be longer.. and it is proportionate...

haven't had time to go through the last post.. but did you give us/me ythe Six Stride marks of the male and female you posted, that i gave my "best guess" on.. 55 for the male and 43/44 for the female??

i have observed that the female vaulters almost always have marks way outside the "chart".

i feel the reason for that is most probally not enough strength to run with the fast explosive ground times so they overstride..

you posted a lot of data and charts and i will go over them when i have time.. you seemed to "despute" the chart without the accurate approach or perception.. i will have to go over the charts to see if anything in those "provens" your points..

i have found the chart to be much more accurate that you have indicated.. and accurate because if follows the correct way to run fast.. whch has a corisponding stride length to frequency based on the amount of force, in the right direction, applied to the body mass.

please post the "numbers" for your two athletes..

dj

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the mid mark chart

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:18 pm

DJ the check marks have been posted in the first of my last two post on this topic.

haven't had time to go through the last post.. but did you give us/me ythe Six Stride marks of the male and female you posted, that i gave my "best guess" on.. 55 for the male and 43/44 for the female??

i have observed that the female vaulters almost always have marks way outside the "chart".

i feel the reason for that is most probally not enough strength to run with the fast explosive ground times so they overstride..

you posted a lot of data and charts and i will go over them when i have time.. you seemed to "despute" the chart without the accurate approach or perception.. i will have to go over the charts to see if anything in those "provens" your points..


The sample size you have gathered data from females may be too small and non representative of female vaulters. The females who would fit the stature of the smaller men used to obtain your original data would come closer but I think they do need to be considered seperately.

Average Sprint Speed = Step length x Step rate. The same average speed can be achieved by different proportions of step length and rate.
Absolutely no dispute here.

Accurate approach and perception issue .... what do you mean?

I dont dispute the chart! I think I have identified that it cannot be used in the absolute way you suggest. I have recommended your chart not disputed it. Check my posts.

The basis on which I recommend your chart is to alert readers that it gives good, useful working approximations of the location of the 6 step check mark. I do point out some limitations which you must recognise DJ because on statistical probability grounds alone the chart is not infallible. In fact you actually agree with me that this so (see comment re females or even Bubka)! You obviously have taken exception to my use of "approximations". Fair enough that is your prerogative. It doesn't change the fact that the data are approximations whether you wish to accept the fact or not. Again, I repeat, they are on the whole very good approximations but approximations they definitely are! The chart is fallible not infallible. The chart is a diamond but not the perfect diamond.

The way in which stride length and stride rate combine to give average speed I believe I have represented correctly. The how of putting them together and biomechanics of that process as the basis for pole vault sprinting needs further development and is better addressed in another thread. The hammer and nail theory, (pogo - stick theory) of sprinting, what is or is not overstriding, defining what a correct stride is, assymmetry of the step pattern step lengths in pole vault and so on all need clarification so that we speak the same language and can thereby discuss with more rationale and specificity.
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the mid mark chart

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:17 pm

first the leg length is not a factor.. greene had a one half inch per stride longer than carl lewis in there world record runs.. greene was faster

Quinon in the 84 olympics had a longer distance from the coaches mark than tully and bell, he was faster but shorter..

if the athlete is running correctly, which means with more force and less ground time there strides will be longer.. and it is proportionate...


So Greene was faster and had a one half inch per stride longer than Lewis and Greene was the faster of the two. I think you mean leg length is a factor then? (Leg length is a factor and interacts with step length and step rate (a longer leg has a larger moment of inertia about the hip and requires more torque to accelerate it.) Which of the two had the highest average stride rate? Both rate and length of stride must be considered at the same time to discern the proportional realtionship between them. It is not just the one component but both that determine average speed.

Quinon must therefore have had a very much higher stride rate to make up for his smaller stride length and to achieve a higher average speed than either Bell or Tully

I agree ground contact forces are the causative agents of the sprint action flight height and time and hence stride time and distance covered(we have to distinguish between running steps and strides). How, Where and When these forces are produced, their magnitudes, directions and line of action in relation to the centre of mass need to be known to build accurate conceptual models of the specifics of the sprint in pole vault. Pole vault sprinting is not the same as sprinting the 100m.

Although it more closely resembles the long jump run up there are other demands to be met in running fast with a vaulting pole. A question that has to be resolved for the pole vault run up is where is the optimal foot ground contact location with respect to the vaulter's centre of mass in the different phase of the approach in pole vaulting? What the athlete and coach believe in this regard has a major influence on how the vaulter sprints in the carriage and plant phases of the approach run.

I think that I have represented the proportional relationships correctly for the sprint examples you gave. If they are not correct please tell me why and where I am wrong.
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Unread postby dj » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:17 pm

hye

communication still seems to be a problem..

Average Sprint Speed = Step length x Step rate. The same average speed can be achieved by different proportions of step length and rate.


this can happen on paper but does not happen in reality.. if both athlete are applying the forces correctly, and the same forces, they will have the same stride length.. long legs.. short legs.. all

and that speed is potentially proportionatre to Grip and the ability to get that grip to vertical.

The sample size you have gathered data from females may be too small and non representative of female vaulters. The females who would fit the stature of the smaller men used to obtain your original data would come closer but I think they do need to be considered seperately.


they should be considered from the same data.. because of how speed is created. the fact that a 15 year old 5'10 135 lb guy can out jump and out run a 15 year old girl of the same stature simply means the guy has more power per mass and will run faster and have a "Check Mark" proportionate to the grip and not leg length... meaning the "Check Mark" won't be the same if they are not gripping the same.


i agree we somehow need to speak the same language and maybe we will cross paths and i can dimo.. my thoughts, and it will make more sense.

Quinon must therefore have had a very much higher stride rate to make up for his smaller stride length and to achieve a higher average speed than either Bell or Tully


Quinon actually had longer strides! that was the point i was trying to make.. somehow it was missed.

lewis and Mo greene had the same number of strides, i think 47, with Mo crossing the line on his 47th 23 inches ahead of Carl.

i have film of the same thing happening with Yana Block (5-4) and Jones (5-10) same number of steps with the shorter person a fraction of an inch longer.. and winning

I think that I have represented the proportional relationships correctly for the sprint examples you gave. If they are not correct please tell me why and where I am wrong.


are these in the post.. i won't be back online until a couple of days.. day after tomorrow i arrive Lahti, Finland.. hopefully once i can read everthing and if i have anything i think i can add for clarification i will..

the most difficult part for me in trying to "explain" what and why i found the "chart' so fool proof. and trying to explain it to people i don't know and that don't know me is a big problem. the readers on here that are not posting that have seem it work.. correctly... time and time again.. hopefully are able to use it even if just as a brief "check' to see if the athletes id with in the prameters of a correct and fast run..

take care

dj

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Unread postby Bubba PV » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:40 pm

Fill me in on Lahti buddy - World Masters there next year and I turn 55 Tuesday!! I'll finally be the young guy at Worlds. Bubba
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Unread postby agapit » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:23 pm

dj wrote:
lewis and Mo greene had the same number of strides, i think 47, with Mo crossing the line on his 47th 23 inches ahead of Carl.



I have counted

Mo Green - 9.86s in 47.5 steps
Tyson Gay – 9.76s in 44 steps
Asafa Powell – 9.74s in 43.5 steps

Am I way off?
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:34 pm

agapit wrote:
dj wrote:
lewis and Mo greene had the same number of strides, i think 47, with Mo crossing the line on his 47th 23 inches ahead of Carl.



I have counted

Mo Green - 9.86s in 47.5 steps
Tyson Gay – 9.76s in 44 steps
Asafa Powell – 9.74s in 43.5 steps

Am I way off?


I think Bolt is 41 for his WR and is by far the tallest.

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mid chart

Unread postby ladyvolspvcoach » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:44 pm

The data show that is not possible to differentiate between the variables of interest (especially step rate) in the performances of Bubka and Mack with any confidence until the original video is recorded at 60pps. It is possible to de interlace the video taken at 30 frames per second and produce a playback at the equivalent of 60 frames per second. This still only gives a time resolution of + - 0.0167 seconds and not the 0.001 seconds claimed! For the female and the male to be confidently differentiated with respect to the step rate and length, the original video would need to have been recorded at at least 120 frames(pps) to be confident about the observed similarities or differences. In a nutshell, at 30pps it is not possible to see with any confidence known differences in step length and rates between individuals who are relatively similar in grip length on the pole


The video was shot at 120 pps and played back at 60pps... Hmmmmm
actually, the rundrills derived from the chart had been used for several years before this video was made. I had thought that most of my athletes were running pretty much the same. I used the Dartfish tools to compare the differences between each of them and to see who was the fastest. The results that I posted were a complete surprise to me.......there were NO hypotheses proffered and no theories promoted. Just simple results that I shared.
Last edited by ladyvolspvcoach on Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby ladyvolspvcoach » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:54 pm

Other factors related to the recording of the original video source material also confound the problems of using Dartfish in this way.

DJ and others can be forgiven because the visual effect of the video is indeed very powerful and easily misleads those holding shared beliefs in regard to Grip height and the 6 step check mark invariant relationship


For those of us who have learned the incredible value of using the data in the chart, it is clear the it is as effective as claimed regardless of any analysis of this type. Somewhere some fundamental issue of the chart is missing in these considerations. Perhaps, if the only athletes that were considered matched the 6 foot model that the chart is based on. Interpolation would have to be done for any other height athlete...

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mid chart

Unread postby ladyvolspvcoach » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:05 pm

Dartfish was used like a drunk uses a lampost for support rather than illumination!

Although not done to intentionally mislead, it is my contention that the inferrences that have been drawn from the video evidence are fallacious.


WOW! Looks like a severe outbreak of cranialanalitis has broken out in S. Australia....hope it's not a pandemic.....

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The mid mark chart

Unread postby PVstudent » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:54 pm

ladyvospvcoach and Dartfish video: here is some more "cranioanalitis" (I just love this newly coined word)!

The video was shot at 120 pps and played back at 60pps... Hmmmmm


The duration of your video clip is 5 seconds according to Windows Media Player. (It is actually 5.439 seconds according to Quintic player: but no matter). If we agree that this is the duration of the clip (5.0 seconds) which most PVP viewers might find with the video player they use, then consider the following Facts.

A video taken at 120 frames per second and of 1 second duration will have precisely 120 frames. Do we agree? I now will assume we do.

Your video clip is of 5 seconds duration and should therefore have 5 x 120 frames (600 frames) if the video camera took the pictures at 120 frames per second. Do we agree? I assume we do.

You state that the replay ("playback") speed was 60 frames per second. Do we agree? I shall assume we do.

Now if we agree with what you stated in your post then it follows that there were 600 frames to be played back at the rate of 60 frames per second. Do we agree? I assume we do.

How long should the clip take to play back at the rate of 60 frames per second? I make this to be 600 frames divided by 60 frames per second. Do we agree?

The result of the calculation is that the replay should take 10 seconds! Do we agree?

My conclusion is that one of us is is wrong. Alternatively the facts of the matter are not correct and the above calculation, though correct, is based on false facts. You supplied the facts, I supplied the correct calculation based on the facts you supplied. Readers I leave to draw their own conclusions.

It's not "cranioanalitis" its just that healthy skepticism is alive and well in the state of South Australia. Great disease this cranioanalitis, there should be more of it!
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