Free Take-off???

[tennpolevault]

Its me Roman.......Russ. Remember? I am still evolving my coaching schema and hope to bring the best of both worlds together. I learned many great things from B and we talk regularly. I have great respect for his "eye" and the confidence he instills in athletes. He is my mentor. I also try to utilize the petrov model in my coaching. It is very difficult due the many bad habits high school vaulters come in with. I don't want to completely change things all at once, but do need to quickly integrate the advanced theories piece by piece. Mostly I teach them fundamentals like proper running, pole carry, drop mechanics, proper take-off, and being active at all times on the pole. I have to find that balance between change and performance because they are in college and need to produce results also.

[agapit]

Its me Roman.......Russ. Remember? I am still evolving my coaching schema and hope to bring the best of both worlds together. I learned many great things from B and we talk regularly. I have great respect for his "eye" and the confidence he instills in athletes. He is my mentor. I also try to utilize the petrov model in my coaching. It is very difficult due the many bad habits high school vaulters come in with. I don't want to completely change things all at once, but do need to quickly integrate the advanced theories piece by piece. Mostly I teach them fundamentals like proper running, pole carry, drop mechanics, proper take-off, and being active at all times on the pole. I have to find that balance between change and performance because they are in college and need to produce results also.

Hi Russ. I think good things about you and your work at TN. You are the one who has to continue the tradition. Well, I should mention Jeff in Nashville. College coaching is very hard, I feel your pain. If I can help or you want to play golf we can call B and always get together.

I just want to see the WR in my lifetime. I have seen a few, but that was a long time ago. I feel that I have to put out what I have learned over the years to help to develop the winning model. We all should argue, question bring ideas, thourhg ideas away, try, win, fail & live.

When I was sitting in Paris in 1997 after the world's indoor, I though, well Bubka was #1 for 15 years he set 35 records he won at the time 5 Worlds (6 since). I have seen 6.40m. I digged dip and the only motivation I could find to continue is to help to set another WR. This is the only way one can get in the same league. I love to coach kids. I love pole vault, but my burning desire is WR and I know I will see it. Call it an ego if you will, but I call it fun.

See you soon.

[PVstudent]

Thank you to those who took time to comment and make a stab at defining what is a Free Takeoff and what is a Prejump.

There remain some matters that need to be cleared up before I will respond with my definitions. Whilst I agree there is very little difference between a Free Take-off and a Prejump, there is a difference in the way that the pole becomes "loaded" in relation to the role of the lower hand grip in effecting the commencement of energy transfer into the pole immediately prior to pole tip impact with the rear wall of the planting box.

Now to my responses to contributors:

Decanuk: Golfdane gave you a spot on answer and the following pictures and force curves should therefore be of interest to you and also to Volteur who wanted to know about the forces on the apron of the planting box. The sliding pole creates a downward directed force on apron contact and during the slide into pole tip impact and retardation by the rear wall. The reaction force from the planting box is therefore directed upward on pole initial contact and subsequent slide along the apron.

Agapit's simple but subtle comment suggested to me that the bent arms in picture 3 (original Bubka sequence) i.e. The right arm in particular has not been fully extended at the elbow or driven back with respect to the forward motion of Bubka's upspringing body stretch. I understood this to be indicating that in picture 3 pole impact with the rear of the box had not yet occurred! If I have misconstrued your point Agapit, correct me please.

Volteur's comment re the recorded jump not being a true test is I believe a tad harsh! What % of maximum (PR) is a true test. Isinbayeva's WR, whilst not even a Free Takeoff, represents her best officially recorded level. If she jumped 4.70m would you then say the jump was not a true test? It will be interesting to see what changes have occurred to her takeoff under Petrov's training and whether they will move in the direction towards a Free Takeoff. Similarly if Isinbayeva can jump in training a PB of 5.20m would you then say her WR was not a true test.
The fact of the matter is the vaulter jumped with a prejump and it was recorded objectively and the bar was successfully cleared. The jumper in question was pretty close to a Free Takeoff on his 5.40m PB which is on record on video tape only.

I am glad you have now noticed the bent arms, particularly when you didn't see this before. Imagine how difficult this would be for you to see at real life performance speed. This would be especially so, if as a coach you did not believe that a prejump was possible or even desirable in regard to vaulter intention when trying to produce a Free takeoff. ( We tend to see what we want to see and this bias colours our perceptions (Did you at first see a beautiful woman and then an old crone with a wart on her nose? Actually the page has black markings on it which your brain responds to and organizes into a coherent meaningful whole - what you see is a construction very much culturally biased. What we see when observing pole vault is similarly biased by our PV cultural and the belief systems within that culture.

Thanks for the definitions they need I think more refinement but put us well on the way.

BTB2 is a vastly superior work compared to the Beta Version BTB1!

Coach Baggett I Absolutely agree on the how to get there being the issue. However If there is no clear goal or clearly defined destination then I don't think how one travels on a journey matters. Leonardo Da Vinci summed the point as follows:

"Those who are enamoured of practice without science are like a pilot who goes into a ship without rudder or compass and never has any certainty whither he is going."

Leonardo Da Vinci 1452 - 1519.

My intention is to establish some consensus on what a Free Takeoff is and what it is not! Once we are clear then the means and equipment needed to undertake the journey can be established and the destination arrived at without random wanderings subject to the "whims and fancies" of particular gods! The processes, (the what to do , when to do it and where to do it and the myriad whys and wherefores etc.) can better avoid blind alleys and pitfalls along the way by knowing where one is intending to go and by what path.

The accompanying force curves have been obtained using force platforms and have been synchronized with video records of the vaulter's movement pattern (No images unfortunately are available to me from the Isinbayeva records).

Again there is clear evidence that the pole is exerting downward force as it contacts the planting box prior to impact with the rear wall. This has important implications for the explanation of what the grip stability and hand motion contributes during the culmination of the plant and in effecting the transfer of energy into the pole.

Further comments and contributions of definitions would be appreciated.

[agapit]

Agapit's simple but subtle comment suggested to me that the bent arms in picture 3 (original Bubka sequence) i.e. The right arm in particular has not been fully extended at the elbow or driven back with respect to the forward motion of Bubka's upspringing body stretch. I understood this to be indicating that in picture 3 pole impact with the rear of the box had not yet occurred! If I have misconstrued your point Agapit, correct me please.

Good post. You understood it right about the slight bend in both arms. What is the probable cause, in your opinion, for this person not to achieve a free take-off (frame #3). It is not a trick question. I just want to hear what you have to say.

[PVstudent]

Good post. You understood it right about the slight bend in both arms. What is the probable cause, in your opinion, for this person not to achieve a free take-off (frame #3). It is not a trick question. I just want to hear what you have to say.

The vaulter in question could not execute the take off as a free take-off primarily because she had completed an over extension of the right arm by being slightly early with the final arm action of the plant. This had two consequences 1. slight overstride on the last step and more importantly 2.she was compelled to exert downward force on the lower hand against the pole to slightly slow the rate of pole inclination towards the plane of the bar (big negative bend on apron contact).

Without the force platform information and given the video frame rate I would have said close to a free takeoff. There are the auditory cues from the pole hitting the plant box that the picture just cannot convey. The pole sound as the pole hits the back wall at bottom of the box is audible before the foot is seen leaving the ground in this example in real time of course.

So the free takeoff did not occur because the arms were not able to continue the increase in pole angle at the same rate as it slid along the bottom of the plant box and the pole tip consequently hit the back wall before the toes of the takeoff foot broke contact with the ground. The cause is the premature overextension of the vaulter's right elbow and too much right shoulder flexion which slowed the pole inclination rate during the plantar flexion phase of the takeoff foot action. Timing synchronization of arm leg interaction error is the cause.

Other thoughts?

[agapit]

Good post. You understood it right about the slight bend in both arms. What is the probable cause, in your opinion, for this person not to achieve a free take-off (frame #3). It is not a trick question. I just want to hear what you have to say.

The vaulter in question could not execute the take off as a free take-off primarily because she had completed an over extension of the right arm by being slightly early with the final arm action of the plant. This had two consequences 1. slight overstride on the last step and more importantly 2.she was compelled to exert downward force on the lower hand against the pole to slightly slow the rate of pole inclination towards the plane of the bar (big negative bend on apron contact).

Without the force platform information and given the video frame rate I would have said close to a free takeoff. There are the auditory cues from the pole hitting the plant box that the picture just cannot convey. The pole sound as the pole hits the back wall at bottom of the box is audible before the foot is seen leaving the ground in this example in real time of course.

So the free takeoff did not occur because the arms were not able to continue the increase in pole angle at the same rate as it slid along the bottom of the plant box and the pole tip consequently hit the back wall before the toes of the takeoff foot broke contact with the ground. The cause is the premature overextension of the vaulter's right elbow and too much right shoulder flexion which slowed the pole inclination rate during the plantar flexion phase of the takeoff foot action. Timing synchronization of arm leg interaction error is the cause.

Other thoughts?

This is one very interesting observation. I tend to agree with the logic behind your response. This is another argument against completely extended arm before completion of the jump.

[PVstudent]

Agapit, if there was a spoon I think we would be using it in the same way and for the same purpose!

Thank you for the response.

I am still hanging off providing my operational definitions of a free take off and a pre-jump to see if others wish to respond on this thread.

The debate on the swing and acceleration I hope will continue. I would, as an ex gymnast and metal era (very ordinary standard pb 12 ft 6inches) pole vaulter like to contribute but as you know only too well they can take an extraordinary amount of time to prepare. A lot of the time energy is wasted in clearing the decks in terms of getting agreement on the words and the concepts they stand for before enlightening debate and discussion can ensue.

Thank you for your efforts in this regard. How do you find the time to keep on contributing to PVP, run a business and I hope continue to coach?

Balshoya Spasciba (my clumsy english phonetic attempt) at
Thank you very much.

Ps. The role of the bottom hand grip in the culmination of the plant and first phase of pole support still needs to be clarified and elaborated for all vaulters whether they be 'tuck and shooters' or 'Petrovians'!

[agapit]

Agapit, if there was a spoon I think we would be using it in the same way and for the same purpose!

Thank you for the response.

The spoon has double meaning in my signature.

First, if you watched Matrix, you may remember that Neo watched a young student of the Oracle bending the spoon with his though commenting to Neo that there really is no spoon. Neo used this thought when he jumped in the elevator shaft against the odds. So this is Neo’s quote from Matrix: “There is no spoonâ€

[volteur]

in Zen at first there is a spoon, after time there is no spoon and later again there is just a spoon again. What is the spoon when it is not a spoon. Something is there but we don't recognise it as a spoon. What do we recognise? What is pole vault when it is not pole vault?

[agapit]

in Zen at first there is a spoon, after time there is no spoon and later again there is just a spoon again. What is the spoon when it is not a spoon. Something is there but we don't recognise it as a spoon. What do we recognise? What is pole vault when it is not pole vault?

2 deep 4 me

[volteur]

in Zen at first there is a spoon, then there is no spoon and later there is just a spoon again. What is the spoon when it is not a spoon. Something is there but we don't recognise it as a spoon. What do we recognise? What is pole vault when it is not pole vault?

2 deep 4 me

your pole vault is not pole vault (not the way it is normally seen)