Pole Vault Manifesto

[KirkB]

... We observed in the mid 80s all vaulters slowly change to a vertical pole carry introduced by Bubka ...

Kjell Isaakson used a high pole carry in 1971 - long before Bubka. I first saw him use it in the Portland Indoor.

Two days later, I promptly tried it myself, and raised my PR by one foot! There were other factors involved (I was due for a break-thru, and I improved other aspects of my technique), but the high pole carry was the icing on the cake for me, and I never looked back. And the free pole drop went hand in hand with the high pole carry. The high pole carry allows you to drop the pole "weightlessly" - as you've pointed out.

After reading this Manifesto thread, and the Repent/Doomed thread post-by-post, I'm actually quite surprised how little elite vault technique has progressed in the past 36 years (assuming that this is all ya got!). This isn't a slam to modern vaulters. It's just that I'm not seeing much new, other than loading the pole on takeoff and tuck/shoot. Those techniques are foreign to me. And neither one is part of your model. (I do NOT include your 6.40 model in so-called modern vaulting, as it's not a reality yet. Maybe in our lifetime?)

The trail leg kickback is another area of confusion for me. I did that in 1971-72 and it really helped me A LOT! I was the first to do that (resulting in a long, exaggerated trail leg swing), and it put me 8" under the WR in 1971, despite a VERY SLOW RUN. I'm very surprised that this technique hasn't caught on - or has it?

I'm not clear whether you advocate that or not. Perhaps in the 6.05 model, but not in the 6.40 model? I think Alan Launder mentions it in the couple online pages of his B2B that I read yesteday? So does that mean that it's part of the Petrov model? And your model?

Kirk Bryde

[AVC Coach]

The trail leg kickback is another area of confusion for me. I did that in 1971-72 and it really helped me A LOT! I was the first to do that (resulting in a long, exaggerated trail leg swing), and it put me 8" under the WR in 1971, despite a VERY SLOW RUN. I'm very surprised that this technique hasn't caught on - or has it?

I heard this called "finishing the take-off" so that's how I relay it to my vaulters and I believe it's a vital part of a successful jump. I relate it to kicking a ball.

[golfdane]

Wow, Kirk!! You've competed with my friend and mentor, Wojciech Buciarski in Munich, '72

Cool!

He participated last year in the Danish Master's tournament and jumped 340cm (with no training and not much of a warm up, and got a little injured). He don't train much himself (if anything), but freelances as a coach, which my son benefits from.

[volteur]

... And from rings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn5LIiHm ... re=related

This is the model that I followed. Look at the tremendous lift she gets in her foreswing from this extreme backswing!

The kickback is exaggerated more than is practical on a pole. But still, it's a definite kickback.

Imagine how much less force she would have on her swing if she didn't swing back (as far).

Kirk Bryde

Kirk, she may have less force depending, however, the exaggeration is really extreme. Would you agree in a vault the top hand and the rear foot during takeoff stay in a similar vertical line? In Amy's case there is quite a massive difference. Part of it is due to a large imbalance between the energy derived from the lower body and that coming from the upper. I see them as needing to be even. On a pole this is a necessity whereas on the rings other technical options can be taken. For example I'm looking at the last few moments before she inverts. What is she doing there? The hand movement stands out for me.

I think the centre of the arch created at the end of takeoff is the centre of gravity and not some point up in the chest.

[agapit]

... We observed in the mid 80s all vaulters slowly change to a vertical pole carry introduced by Bubka ...

Kjell Isaakson used a high pole carry in 1971 - long before Bubka. I first saw him use it in the Portland Indoor.

I will attempt to answer a few of your questions you have raised in this and other posts.

First, Kjell Isaakson used the vertical pole carrying 1971 and still in 1983 people user wide variety of pole carry methods. Not until the phenomenon of Bubka everyone switched to the vertical pole carry. I did not say that the Bubka used this method first, but that nearly all mimic it after he used it.

Second, on the contrary if you meet the pole with the straight arm at the takeoff on the ground your shoulders would be a subject to greater injury.

None of the vaulter who use a free takeoff method have their arms completely extended before the takeoff of the ground is complete. It happens in the air. Neither any of the steel vaulters had their arms completely extended until after the jump off the ground was complete. In addition it would be impractical to attempt a jump with the straight arms, wouldn’t it. Bubka described it as growing after takeoff.

Third, the “kickbackâ€

[KirkB]

Thanks to everyone for your replies to my recent posts. I'm just catching up now on "modern vaulting technique" (after a 36 year absence!), and I have many more questions and comments.

I'm particularly wondering if my unique technique holds up to modern-day scrutiny. You may have gathered by now that I consider my technique "ahead of its time".

It might not fit the 6.40 model, but I think it's a variant of the 6.05 model. Since the 6.40 model isn't yet a reality, I think there's merit in trying to improve the 6.05 model, without getting too theoretical or idealistic about gymnastic movements that are thus far unproven (notice I didn't say impossible).

I'll create my own thread for this purpose - another manifesto, so to speak. I'll call it The Bryde Bend, as that's what people called my technique back in 1971-72. Especially spectators that didn't really understand what I was doing on the pole. They just saw my big bend.

No offense, but I really had to separate a lot of chaff from the wheat in the Manifesto and the Repent/Doomed threads. Personally, I'm only interested in discussing good solid vaulting technique - without bickering.

So if I create my own thread, I hope that we can get down to some really important stuff. Not that it matters for my career - it's over. I haven't jumped for 36 years.

But if there's any contribution that I can make to the improvement of the event, then I'm going to try. Even if it's just helping to establish an unambiguous polevaulter's vernacular.

Look for it in a few days.

Kirk Bryde

[agapit]

It might not fit the 6.40 model, but I think it's a variant of the 6.05 model. Since the 6.40 model isn't yet a reality,

No offense, but I really had to separate a lot of chaff from the wheat in the Manifesto and the Repent/Doomed threads. Personally, I'm only interested in discussing good solid vaulting technique - without bickering.

Non taken.

FYI. The 6.40 model is already 25 years old. The reason I called it 640 model, because we have seen jumps by the Prophet at 640. Back in the days the only question was whether it is going to be 6.30 or 6.40m.

It could be better for users if you start your own post. I would also appreciate that you do not call it Manifesto, however do whatever makes you feel better.

Cheers!

[KirkB]

Wow, Kirk!! You've competed with my friend and mentor, Wojciech Buciarski in Munich, '72

Cool!

Golfdane, yes I remember him. It's interesting that his son Piotr (U. of Oregon grad) is now the Danish record holder 5.75, and he was the Polish record holder (PR 5.50). Poland's loss is Denmark's gain!

More nostalgia - but pertinent to this Pole Vault Manifesto thread ...

I found this post in the "The Fiberglass Era" - Circa 1964 thread on the Historical forum ...

http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... c&start=12

"sorry to bring up "model" here.. but tom telez and guy kochel (to name only two americans, there were fiberglass vaulters and coaches before them) had "The Model" at least as early as 1974.. and it was no different in concept than the 6.40 bubka Model.. and this in NOT in disrespect for petrov.. he improved the model and described it in a way (Natural Vault.. relaxed extended arms, free takeoff, which is what guy kochel was saying when he said "you will feel like you have taken off to far out, 3/4" before the pole tip hits the back of the box") that should be listened to and produced the only 20' vaulter to date.

to me this sounds like "the model" one that we, USA, has been working toward for a long time.. and that pacer III's let us start to obtain because of the design.. "

dj - please note that I am not contradicting you because I was not in a position to watch US vaulters in that period - although I did see Seagren jump in Munich - and I have never had a chance to discuss these ideas with the coaches you mention, However as a former - very lightweight - academic, I know that any statements one makes must be substantiated with facts if they are to mean anything. I have already asked folk to put up film of the athletes of that period but unfortunately there have been no takers to date. Now I would like to see any written material that is available that confirms that the coaches you mention were in fact employing the Petrov model before Petrov, as well as film of athletes jumping like Bubka before Bubka. I AM NOT SAYING IT DID NOT HAPPEN - I would just like evidence that goes beyond anecdotal reports.

One reason for my concern is that drawings I have -taken from film of Fred Hansen - suggest that he certainly was not employing a technical model that remotely resembled the Petrov/Bubka model

I know Petrov studied US methods but I am not sure who he spoke to or which vaulters he specifically studied -I would appreciate that information through PVP as I would prefer not to pester Vitali for it..

This intrigues me. I might have been one of those pre-Bubka vaulters that altius is referring to.

Tom Tellez coached Jon Vaughn, Rick Sloan, and Dick Railsback at UCLA in the late 60s. Ken Shannon coached with him there, then came to UW in 1969 - my freshman year. We studied their tapes intensely, especially Vaughn's 17-4 jump.

Today, reading altius' post is the first knowledge that I've ever had that our model back then might have been similar to Petrov's. Other than reading this Pole Vault Manifesto thread in the past couple days, I mean.

I've been living in a cave for the past 36 years!

I've decided to buy the B2B book, and read it cover to cover before I start my Bryde Bend thread. I want to be able to communicate intelligently with Alan about circa 1972 v. modern technique, and I know he'll be referring me to page numbers, so I need to have the book in hand or he'll roast me!

Gimme some time to get the book and absorb it. With summer holidays coming, I might not be posting about this for awhile.

Kirk Bryde

[volteur]

this is all very strange to me

[agapit]

I've decided to buy the B2B book, and read it cover to cover before I start my Bryde Bend thread. I want to be able to communicate intelligently with Alan about circa 1972 v. modern technique, and I know he'll be referring me to page numbers, so I need to have the book in hand or he'll roast me!

Gimme some time to get the book and absorb it. With summer holidays coming, I might not be posting about this for awhile.

Kirk Bryde

Dear Friend BTB2 is an EXCELLENT! Book on modern vaulting and coaching. Everyone in the business should have it regardless of their opinions and models. I think, Alan is selling it to cheap. So, good luck in studying it.

I am anxious for you to come up with a description of your understanding of the vaulting model cir 1972 or 2008 whatever. I bet you after you are done, you are going to be at the altar.

Cheers!

[KirkB]

... I bet you after you are done, you are going to be at the altar.

Cheers!

Only sinners need to repent at the altar.

I'm singing in the choir.

Haven't you noticed?

Kirk Bryde

[KirkB]

... The 6.40 model is already 25 years old. The reason I called it 640 model, because we have seen jumps by the Prophet at 640. Back in the days the only question was whether it is going to be 6.30 or 6.40m ...

25 years ago puts us at 1984, when Bubka set his first WR (5.85). That's 55 cm under 6.40 (almost 2').

So do you mean that he had hip height on 6.40, or did it in practice, or what?

Or do you mean that he demonstrated 6.40 technique back then, even though he didn't literally jump that high? If that's the case, did he swing in a straight-body, or did he bend at the hips? If so, how much?

And what about the free-takeoff? Did you see that in 1984, or was that something that developed over the decade that the WR progressed to 6.14?

I'm just a little confused between the 6.05 and the 6.40 technique on these points. Does B2B cover 6.40, or just 6.05?

Sorry for so many questions at once.

Thanks for any clarification you can make about this. If they've already been asked and answered long ago, then I apologize. I read the entire Pole Vault Manifesto and Doomed/Repent threads, and didn't see these points covered. But it was tedious to read (all that chaff - by others, not by you), so I might have missed something.

Kirk