Apr 20, 2007 - Agapit started the discussion by declaring Bubka a 20'+ prophet that we're ignoring. We're not following the Petrov/Bubka model - thus we're all "sinners".
He predicts M WR 21'+ and F WR 18'+ is within reach with this model, but pessimistically doesn't think this will happen anytime soon, as we "don't get it" yet - we're doomed to mediocre heights (If you can call 19' mediocre!).
He declares himself as an apostle of the Petrov/Bubka model (I think). Later (Apr 24, 2007), he exposes Altius as the other apostle.
Really, the premise of Roman's post is that today's tuck/shoot and drive vaulters are doing it all wrong. They should swing in the "continuous motion" (chain theory) path.
OUVaulterUSAF asks 3 questions:
1. When does the swing begin, and why?
2. How could one increase the speed of the swing and generate more energy at the same time?
3. Does swing need to be shortened at the hips and why? My note: This question never does get answered.
Apparently, Agapit planted these questions in the Pole Vault Manifesto for someone to ask, and OUVaulterUSAF obliged him.
Agapit says that the swing begins immediately after the pressure of the pole hitting the back of the box is felt by the top hand, and your takeoff foot has left the ground.
My note: The latter point is undeniable, since the trail leg cannot swing if it's not yet airborne. I will, however, dispute that the swing MUST begin as early as he states. If you kick your trail leg back (as Tim McMichael advocates in his "drive vault", as as I did in 1971-72), the swing is delayed. Predictably, Agapit may counter that you're still swinging, you're just swinging slower. If pressed, I would concede this point.
Agapit then asks/answers the next question: What does the vaulter do when the swing begins? If you swing too early, you stall. His answer: Free takeoff!
He then poses his own followup question: How do you stay behind the chord of the pole so that you don't stall?
For brevity, I'll skip his discussion of the L-position. I don't claim to understand his logic about this.
A discussing of pushing/pulling/rowing with the bottom arm ensues.
In riddle-like fashion, Agapit and OUVaulterUSAF discuss when/how to pull with the bottom arm. Agapit says that ideally, you begin pulling when you start swinging.
My note: Hmm ... I always worked on PUSHING with the top hand after takeoff, and RELAXING the bottom hand - not PULLING. Just using the bottom arm for balance - no push, no pull. By initiating this top hand pushing action as a natural extension of the plant/jump, I got maximal height to fulcrum from when the swing began. And then by CONTINUING to PUSH (and at the same time driving the chest forward and letting the top hand be stretched back (over my head), I maintained as long of a swing as I humanly could. This accentuated my drive into the pole, and delayed my forwards trail leg swing quite nicely. From top hand to trail leg foot, I was like an elastic band under pressure, ready to snap/whip. But the PULLING with the bottom hand doesn't start immediately (in my "continuous motion" style). It starts after your swing is delayed by the kick-back. Then, as the pole is "sinking", you begin to pull with your bottom hand. But it's still not a true "pull". In whip-like fashion, you're snapping the trail leg thru and THEN pulling with the lats. OK, that's not quite right either. You're pulling SIMULTANEOUS to whipping the trail leg. It's not as easy to explain this as to demonstrate the gymnastic motions involved on a highbar. Very simply, just do a one-legged swing on a highbar, and you'll FEEL what I mean. Notice that you don't pull until you're thru the chord of the swing under the highbar and your hips are rising. Bear in mind that the pole is angled differently than a highbar. On a highbar, you do a two-handed motion, keeping both elbows straight until you're inverted. Whereas on the pole, the top hand does this, whilst the bottom hand is pulling. I hope I didn't lose you on this dissertation. I do agree with Agapit, however, that you pull with the bottom arm very early in the swing. Just not quite as early as he implies.
As proof of pulling with the bottom hand, Agapit suggests studying Bubka videos.
Carolina21 obliges him, posting a nice series of 6.11 still photos.
My note: Be careful with the "chicken or the egg" analysis problem. His bottom arm LOOKS like it's pulling, so it must be pulling. Not! You could just as easily argue that his bottom arm looks like it's pushing, so it must be pushing. i.e. The natural bend of the pole moves away from the vaulter. But the vaulter is still gripping the pole with his bottom hand, so of course it's going to move with the pole. But is he pushing the pole, or is the pole pulling his hand? You see the chicken/egg problem? Same goes for pulling. I say that it LOOKS like he's pulling because his trail leg is whipping thru, causing an inversion which in turn brings the bottom hand closer to the body. Is that pulling? Well, yes and no!
Yes, he is pulling. No, he's not INITIATING the inversion with his bottom arm. Instead, it starts with the trail leg whip, which ripples up the body. As I conceded above, it's actually a bit of both - trail leg whipping whilst bottom arm pulling. But I claim that this action is INITIATED by the trail leg - not the bottom arm. Therefore, there's a delay between the trail leg swinging forward and the bottom arm pulling - if ever so slight and subtle. Don't try to analyze this to death. Just get onto a highbar and FEEL it!
Continuing on ...
The discussion drifts to PUSHING with the bottom arm. Vaul3rb0y quotes Tim McMichael as advocating a "slight" push with the bottom arm to initiate the pole-bend. Agapit counters by calling Tim's "drive vault" a derogative term intended for sinners - blasphemy!
With that accusation against his "drive vault" (that he describes so eloquently in his Oklahoma Manifesto post), Tim can't resist joining the discussion. As another armchair vaulter (aren't we all?!), he critiques Bubka's early years as "collapsing" his bottom arm, but Agapit quite rightly counters that the arm isn't collapsing. Rather, there was no free takeoff, so the pole didn't bend as much.
My note: You see the chicken/egg problem here again?
At the most technical, detailed level, Tim is right. A very, very slight pressure with the bottom hand starts the bend - maybe. A fiberglass pole is an imperfect column, so doesn't really need a catalyst to initiate the bend. It will bend on its own, simply by the force applied from the top hand.
The pressure needed is either nil (in which case no coaching is needed to the vaulter), or so very slight that coaching is unecessary. In fact, it would be a disservice to tell a vaulter that he must push slightly with the bottom hand, as that will undoubtedly cause the vaulter to exaggerate this action - to the point of slowing down the swing, and possibliy - in the extreme case - to the point of stalling.
IMHO, THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD PARTS OF THE VAULT BY COACHES AND ATHLETES ALIKE. The singlemost cause of this misunderstanding is misinterpretation of vids.
No one said this, but I will add that the direction of the bend is not guided by the bottom hand either. It will find its own "path of least resistance".
Vaultman18: "Pushing is a trap I know it."
My note: I know it too. I read Dr. Richard Ganslen's Pole Vault Mechnanics in high school, and took it too literally. I pushed with the bottom arm, and stalled. To get better penetration, I pushed harder, and stalled more. This wasted my last 3 years of high school vaulting, without getting past 14-3. Not too bad in the 1960s era, but no one needs to fall into that trap today, with all the information now available to modern vaulters.
DON'T PUSH WITH THE BOTTOM HAND AT ALL!!! It might bend the pole, but will stop your swing, and you'll stall out.
LET THE TOP HAND TAKE ALL YOUR WEIGHT, AND JUST USE YOUR BOTTOM ARM TO BALANCE THE POLE!!!
When my UW coach (Ken Shannon) taught me to relax the bottom arm (after takeoff, and thru the start of the swing), at first I refused. I told him the pole wouldn't bend - just as many other naysayers have said on this thread. Unconvinced, I tried a short run, soft pole ... and to my surprise, it bent! We then worked this back to a longer run and stiffer pole, until I got out of the habit of pushing. It took over a year until I completely licked this severe technical flaw.
Incidentally, the poles in my day had a slight prebend, which we always marked and aimed towards the corner of the box. Maybe that prebend helped to solve the "pole is a column that needs a catalytical action to bend" problem?
Moving on ...
CaptainFalcon43 correctly states that the bottom arm is used just to stabilize the pole, and asks for confirmation of this.
My note: He's right.
fx asks: What's going on with the top arm at this time? (He means whilst the bottom arm is pulling, at the start of the swing - immediately after takeoff.)
The apostle answers: "It is simply gripping the pole until the center of gravity of the body passes the chord and then it adds to the acceleration of the rotation, but it does not pull until after complete inversion."
My note: As usual, he's right. I fixed his typos, but I cannot improve anything else about his explanation of this. It's dead on.
A silly argument ensues about vaulting one-handed. Tim even spikes up a films himself vaulting one-handed in his backyard, and posts his vid on Apr 24, 2007! Nice! But unfortunately, he doesn't release his bottom arm until AFTER the pole-bend begins.
Fast forward ...
That same day, Agapit answers more good observations from OUVaulterUSAF, trackpole, master, and Tim. I think his answers make sense (as usual), but there's not much dissention, so I won't elaborate. But read the posts of that day - they're worth it!
Agapit ends the day by thanking Tim for his bravery in the one-handed video clip, but at the same time taunts him for lack of a free takeoff. (paraphrasing)
Tim and Agapit are getting along beautifully at this point of the thread. Quite something, considering the "drive vault" (Dial model) vs. the Petrov model. Tim's very analytical, and open to new levels of understanding. Agapit's got the "perfect vault" envisioned, and is releasing it slowly - post by post, one clarification at a time.
Spencer Chang, MD asks about negative bend. This is the bounce on the apron as a consequence of dropping the pole.
My note: Maybe that bounce turns into the initiation of the positive bend? Just a thought. But personally, I didn't aim for the apron. I aimed for the back of the box. And I'm guessing that from time to time, others would hit the back of the box first - without bouncing on the apron. So this bounce doesn't really explain why the pole ALWAYS bends away and to the side off the vaulter, without any guidance from the bottom arm.
The next day, the discussion drifts to free takeoff ... then free pole-drop ...
Tim surprises us with another self-vid - this time with a free takeoff! A one-hander, and then a two-hander! A true scientist, getting engrossed right into his own expirements! Kudos!
Agapit mentions that bamboo poles bent 12-20".
My note: I used one in Jr. High, and it's true. I actually ended up breaking it - not unlike a typical fiberglass pole-break. That was before I tried to push - I never tried that 'til I got my first fiberglass pole in Grade 10. Also, tapered "Swedish steel" poles bent too. Just so fast you couldn't see it very well with the untrained eye. I was never strong enough or fast enough to bend steel, but I've seen others do it. OK, I'm aging myself.
May 16, 2007 to May 27, 2008 - not a single post! Did someone reset the system clock, or did we all wake up after hibernating for 12.5 months?
The discussion has digressed to Texas Hold'Em, and it's as if the players time-warped for one full year. And with 5 outs in his straight, Agapit claims to have won $175. Bird-feed for sitting at the poker table for over a year!
Tim gets back on his relentless insistence that the bottom arm is "passively resisting" at the start of the swing.
June 9, 2008 - Swtvault asks about Brad Walker "exploiting the left arm".
My note: I think Brad's sped up his trail leg swing to the point where it LOOKS LIKE he's pulling with the left. It's that snap/whipping action that I mentioned earlier, except that Brad doesn't kick his trail leg back. His pole is much stiffer than mine, so he has no time to do that. BTW, his 6.04 wasn't a "continuous motion" - it was a swing-to-tuck-then-shoot. Much different than today's bent-leg tuck/shooters.
June 9-12 - Tim and Agapit are bantering again, over the initiating of the pole bend at the start of the swing by a subtle bottom-hand push. Picky, picky.
June 13 - After talking to Bruce Caldwell about it, Tim concedes to Agapit that bottom arm passive resistance is unecessary. "You need it for balance, but with a great takeoff, the pole will bend without it."
Whew! And this was the Reader's Digest version!
