We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

[agapit]

I think someone should just go and test these theories and be done with it...

What do you mean test? It has been tested and tryed. All athletes I have ever coached have been doing this.

It is been out for 25 years at least!

Repent... LOL.

[agapit]

Tim tried planting a pole with no bend (one handed) on a video once. It didnt work. It was stiff until he swung.

Drive to Sllipery Rock I will teach you.

Three days left to make up your mind. LOL.

Repent...

[Tim McMichael]

I think someone should just go and test these theories and be done with it...

What do you mean test? It has been tested and tryed. All athletes I have ever coached have been doing this.

It is been out for 25 years at least!

Repent... LOL.

Great! Film one of them doing a one armed plant and post it. I'm looking forward to seeing one. In the spirit of compromise I'll even let you use a small pole instead of a competition pole in your demonstration, but I still insist that unless you can show me a one armed plant I will maintain that the bottom arm still plays a part in moving the pole. For the sake of everyone on this board please don't sidestep this.

If you can do it you will have struck a blow at the very foundation of every theory that opposes the Petrov model. If you don't do this, I will assume it is because it cannot be done, and I will take this fact as a flaw in your whole line of thought. If your ideas are based on impossibilities and exaggerations, other problems will inevitably arise.

I hate to be so hardcore about this, but in all fairness, I have never said anything that I could not also demonstrate. I have backed up everything I have insisted on with video evidence. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask the same courtesy, especially when you are asking me to "repent" of what I teach. I speak in terms of probabilities and provide video evidence. You speak in terms of absolutes and provide none. I don't think this is fair, especially on a key element of your theory.

[powerplant42]

^ THIS is what I mean by test it... Let reality rule over theory.

[agapit]

I think someone should just go and test these theories and be done with it...

What do you mean test? It has been tested and tryed. All athletes I have ever coached have been doing this.

It is been out for 25 years at least!

Repent... LOL.

I will maintain that the bottom arm still plays a part in moving the pole.

Tim what is moving the pole means? Let's give things their proper names.

[Tim McMichael]

"Moving" the pole is a term I use in my teaching. It is differentiated from "bending" the pole because a pole can be bent by someone standing on the ground which has nothing to do with pole vaulting. "Moving" means the unique quality of both bending and penetrating up and into the pit. I use this term in my teaching to counter any idea my students might have that bending the pole is an end in and of itself. I prefer they not try to bend the pole, but have the feeling that they are moving the pole (with themselves attached to it) in and up toward the bar. I use this term because it is more descriptive and exact than the word "bending" and because I have to choose my words carefully when dealing with less experienced students who almost always have the wrong idea about how a pole should work.

I guess my answer to your unspoken criticism is that I use this word because I am trying the best I can to give things their "proper" names, and I have developed my vocabulary in the context of my own teaching.

[baggettpv]

A drill I use to get a kid to disengage the bottom arm is to let go of it during the chord shortening of the pole. Primarily switching all the weight and force onto the top hand. I have them do this when they are not swinging up on the pole. Try it you'll like it..

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[AVC Coach]

I think it is important for every group of vaulters to have somewhat of their own terminology. I think it helps them learn more when they have an outside set of eyes watching them. Tim might tell one of my kids the same thing I've been telling them but in a slighty different language and flick, the light bulb comes on.

[achtungpv]

A drill I use to get a kid to disengage the bottom arm is to let go of it during the chord shortening of the pole.

I've heard of Averbukh doing this on 5m poles.

[agapit]

"Moving" the pole is a term I use in my teaching. It is differentiated from "bending" the pole because a pole can be bent by someone standing on the ground which has nothing to do with pole vaulting. "Moving" means the unique quality of both bending and penetrating up and into the pit. I use this term in my teaching to counter any idea my students might have that bending the pole is an end in and of itself. I prefer they not try to bend the pole, but have the feeling that they are moving the pole (with themselves attached to it) in and up toward the bar. I use this term because it is more descriptive and exact than the word "bending" and because I have to choose my words carefully when dealing with less experienced students who almost always have the wrong idea about how a pole should work.

I guess my answer to your unspoken criticism is that I use this word because I am trying the best I can to give things their "proper" names, and I have developed my vocabulary in the context of my own teaching.

I guess we have established here that the left arm can only do few things:

1. To resist/bend the pole
2. Not to resist/bend the pole

I do not think left arm can really "move" the pole into the pit, right?

So, what is wrong with telling young vaulters to resist/bend the pole with the left arm to achieve a bigger bend and delay/slowdown the body from swinging trough too early?

I remember my coach telling me this back in early eighties.

[Tim McMichael]

So, what is wrong with telling young vaulters to resist/bend the pole with the left arm to achieve a bigger bend and delay/slowdown the body from swinging trough too early?

It is wrong because

A. the bottom arm will only get in the way if this is a vaulter's concept of how it works and:

B. If everything is set up properly in the run and takeoff you cannot swing too early. The faster you swing the more the pole will "move" because of the pressure applied through the top arm.

However, if the bottom arm is not on the pole none of this will happen.

It's simple column physics, Roman. Energy applied down the length of a column will not collapse it until some force, however small, begins the process of bending it. I am not sure how you can maintain that a one armed plant will not turn the pole into a column as the force of the run-up is applied directly down the length of the pole. The top arm will be slowed because it is attached to the pole and with nothing to stabilize the lower body, the hips will be thrown forward until they line up with the pole.

The bamboo and steel pole vaulters had to combat this tendency because their poles did not bend, nor did they want them to. They kept themselves from being thrown past the pole with a precisely timed takeoff that moved the pole ahead of them so that their center of gravity stayed behind it.

I have talked with Dick Ganslen who was a 14' vaulter in the 40's during the bamboo era, and he assured me that they chose the stiffest bamboo poles they could find so that they would not bend. My coach at OU was J.D. Martin who was a 15' vaulter in the steel pole days. He told me that if one of those poles bent that they stayed bent, so he had to make sure his takeoff would not apply any force except down the length of the pole. In other words, I have two world class vaulters from both of those eras who have told me that, even though their poles could bend, they tried very hard not to bend them. This is one of the reasons why I cannot agree with your assertion that a takeoff identical to a stiff pole vault will bend the pole.

[agapit]

So, what is wrong with telling young vaulters to resist/bend the pole with the left arm to achieve a bigger bend and delay/slowdown the body from swinging trough too early?

It is wrong because

A. the bottom arm will only get in the way if this is a vaulter's concept of how it works and:

B. If everything is set up properly in the run and takeoff you cannot swing too early. The faster you swing the more the pole will "move" because of the pressure applied through the top arm.

However, if the bottom arm is not on the pole none of this will happen.

It's simple column physics, Roman. Energy applied down the length of a column will not collapse it until some force, however small, begins the process of bending it.

Obviously, It was a trick question. If you agree that the bottom arm only gets in the way... and in the proper run up and takeoff one cannot swing too early, so what you suggest left arm should be doing if not resisting (getting in the way)?

And how do you swing faster?