We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

[ADTF Academy]

Everyone misses the point Agapit. Pulling with the bottom arm in what sense and in what direction.

The video of the young lady proves the point most people are not performing the action correct even though they think they are. Watch the videos and watch were your bottom elbow is. If it is down you are not pulling in the correct manner. This will cause you to row. If you elbow is out then you will pull through your body and put your COM closer and in line with the imaginary pole cord and your swing will be more powerful and in the end you will reach inversion quicker.

I think the other issue is people think fast in the fact of how fast the trail leg is moving. If you fold at the waist your trail leg will move through very very fast but your overall swing to inversion will be slow because you will have to have two phases to your swing to get your hips over your top arm.

With a deeper swing the overall swing speed may appear slower, but the path of the swing will put your hips very high and will make the extension process very quick and the overall timing and ability to cover the pole will be quicker thus beating the pole and getting everything out of the pole on top for the flyaway.

Don't think speed in the sense of how fast your foot is moving but in how fast your hips get over your top arm. Think speed of hips not foot in your swing.

Personally speaking we teach to swing, rotate blah blah however you want to put it, the hips the foot and trail leg is just attached and goes for a ride.

[vault3rb0y]

So what are you doing with your left arm after take-off and what do you think you should be doing?

P.S. WR for U19 is 5.80m.

Well first, my bottom arm is my right arm, and i am 5'9" and run a little over 9.0m/sec into the box, im not very concerned with the U19 WR . But i do hold 14'3 and vault 16'10", if for one reason, i learned how to load the pole in AN effective way, not necessarily the perfect way.

My bottom arm after take off moves above my head with some upward pressure, which seems to happen automatically with a strong chest drive for me. After my trail leg passes under my hips, i use my arms, core, and legs to move my hips as fast as possible upward, and keep it moving until it is over the bar. That means, to me, moving my bottom arm to the side (out of the way) and using core strength to move my hips past my hands, at which point the pole generally begins to recoil, and i pull with both arms to keep my hips moving up.

[agapit]

So what are you doing with your left arm after take-off and what do you think you should be doing?

P.S. WR for U19 is 5.80m.

Well first, my bottom arm is my right arm, and i am 5'9" and run a little over 9.0m/sec into the box, im not very concerned with the U19 WR . But i do hold 14'3 and vault 16'10", if for one reason, i learned how to load the pole in AN effective way, not necessarily the perfect way.

My bottom arm after take off moves above my head with some upward pressure, which seems to happen automatically with a strong chest drive for me. After my trail leg passes under my hips, i use my arms, core, and legs to move my hips as fast as possible upward, and keep it moving until it is over the bar. That means, to me, moving my bottom arm to the side (out of the way) and using core strength to move my hips past my hands, at which point the pole generally begins to recoil, and i pull with both arms to keep my hips moving up.

You should always have fun when vaulting. It seems that you do. That is the most important thing!

I am sure you are going to set many personal records!

Cheers!

[vault3rb0y]

I really just want to make sure i am on the same page with the elites of the vaulting community technique-wise. Its all fun, but fun to me is jumping high. You do that by learning all you can from as many coaches as you can, especially ones like you! Feel free to correct anything i say because its how i learn best, and i read everything you write! Take care.

Jason Pelletier

[Tim McMichael]

Until you can show me someone who can plant their competition pole without their bottom hand on the pole throughout the entire plant - and I am not talking about taking it off after the pole has started bending; any good vaulter can do that, and it is a good demonstration that the bottom arm is not necessary to keep the pole moving; I am also not talking about a small pole that can be dropped into the box so that it rebounds out of a negative bend and starts moving that way; I am talking about having the bottom hand off of a BIG pole BEFORE it hits the back of the box - I will continue to maintain that the bottom arm plays a role in starting the pole bending.

This is not the same thing as pushing with the bottom arm after the pole has started moving.

[baggettpv]

Hahaha, I repented in 1985 when I learned from Andjie... Then I decided to train and jump again after a 10 year layoff. Using his training methods and technique differences I manage to get to 16' in the masters level. And mind I say without injuries.
During Graduate School in 89/90 with very minimal training I was able to jump on a pole 30 lbs over body weight with grip near what I used in college. HAHA I was so out of shape I couldn't do anything after that tho. Now I am too busy with young kids and that concept of Life Long Learning.
Keep up the great discussions, reflections and opinions. I know we will never, ever all agree to the same concepts.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[agapit]

Until you can show me someone who can plant their competition pole without their bottom hand on the pole throughout the entire plant - and I am not talking about taking it off after the pole has started bending; any good vaulter can do that, and it is a good demonstration that the bottom arm is not necessary to keep the pole moving; I am also not talking about a small pole that can be dropped into the box so that it rebounds out of a negative bend and starts moving that way; I am talking about having the bottom hand off of a BIG pole BEFORE it hits the back of the box - I will continue to maintain that the bottom arm plays a role in starting the pole bending.

This is not the same thing as pushing with the bottom arm after the pole has started moving.

Check the last posts in "Free Take-off" look at the picture on the 5.20m 11.0 pole. Ask Steve Chappell what Bubka did different when he picked poles at UCS Spirit. How he never bent it like others. I did it myself, but who am I, I just had marginal success as a vaulter and basically knee reconstruction ended my pro career in 1991. Everyone I coached did not bend the pole at the take-off or resisted with the bottom arm. Though I did not coach as many athletes or as long as Rick Baggett did for example, but I had some marginal success as a coach as well on all levels.

I am telling you if you bend the pole with your bottom arm at all you are doomed to 19' (as in the name of this post).

Cheers!

[Tim McMichael]

Agapit, I hate to point out the obvious, but if you will notice in the picture you reference, Bubka's bottom hand is ON the pole. I have asked you to show me someone who can plant with their hand OFF the pole as you have repeatedly assured me can be done. Answering my question by showing me a free takeoff does not prove your claim.

An athlete who has always used their bottom arm too much by trying to push it through the pole during the first part of the vault may benefit greatly from trying to feel that they are not using it at all, and they will benefit more by learning how to pull with it just after takeoff. But what an athlete feels they are doing and what they are actually doing are two different things. My challenge remains unanswered. Show me someone who can plant a competition pole with their bottom hand off the pole before it hits the back of the box.

[Tim McMichael]

Everyone I coached did not bend the pole at the take-off or resisted with the bottom arm. Though I did not coach as many athletes or as long as Rick Baggett did for example, but I had some marginal success as a coach as well on all levels.

I am telling you if you bend the pole with your bottom arm at all you are doomed to 19' (as in the name of this post).

Cheers!

There is such a thing as passive resistance. The bottom arm supplies some resistance because it is in motion, has mass, and is connected to the pole. This is true even if the vaulter feels that they are using no muscular effort at all. Also, the muscular effort used to finsh moving the pole above the head is completed just before the pole contacts the back of the box. Even in a free takeoff, the muscles do not have enough time to go from the completion of this effort to complete relaxation in the fracton of a second required. Even if an athlete is in the process of completely shutting their bottom arm down, it will still be providing some resistance as the pole hits the box. Once again, what is felt and what is happening are not the same.

[baggettpv]

Thanks for referencing me as a coach Roman....Andjei always referred to the top hand for takeoff.
And by the way, I am still coaching both young and old....Donna Schultz (50 years old) Just cleared 11' in an unofficial meet at my place. She already holds the Indoor world record at 10' 3. Outdoors it's 11'1" by some Australian woman. Who probably jumps with the same emphasis of the model.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[agapit]

Agapit, I hate to point out the obvious, but if you will notice in the picture you reference, Bubka's bottom hand is ON the pole. I have asked you to show me someone who can plant with their hand OFF the pole as you have repeatedly assured me can be done. Answering my question by showing me a free takeoff does not prove your claim.

An athlete who has always used their bottom arm too much by trying to push it through the pole during the first part of the vault may benefit greatly from trying to feel that they are not using it at all, and they will benefit more by learning how to pull with it just after takeoff. But what an athlete feels they are doing and what they are actually doing are two different things. My challenge remains unanswered. Show me someone who can plant a competition pole with their bottom hand off the pole before it hits the back of the box.

Well Tim,

I do not know if it is beneficial to try to take-off on the competition pole with one arm. It is also hard to plant with one arm. You can slide the pole as Tye does, but this is not the point. You must hold the pole with both arms, but this does not mean you should try to bend it.

I brought this example many times. Imagine jumping on bamboo pole. At no point, as I remember, you would resist it with the left arm. Never the less the bamboo pole would bend. This is very similar to what I am advocating on the fiberglass pole.

Does it help?

[powerplant42]

It is extremely difficult to stay behind the pole (and actually be in control) without using the bottom arm to help out the process. If you can't stay behind the pole well, then you can't load the pole well, so it won't rotate as well. The bottom arm should only provide enough resistance to keep the vaulter behind the pole in a good position for the swing. With this, the pole does get some bend from the bottom arm, but it is not a large force. However, the initial force exerted by the bottom arm to keep oneself behind the pole right after take-off provides a bend that can be increased much more easily by the TOP arm/the vaulter's inertia which might not have been able to load the pole as efficiently without it. There it is.