We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Do you repent?

I do
48
68%
I don't
23
32%
 
Total votes: 71

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vaultman18
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri May 30, 2008 10:04 pm

LHSVaulterJJR wrote:after reading and "meditating" over this entire post for hours i find problems with a number of instances. the first that arrises is the perpetual argument within this post amongst applying absolutly no upward force with the bottom arm


(reference)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYaBPDTrVuI




bubka the "prophet" in this video. may have his arm bent, but it still seems to me like he is applying upward pressure for at least a fraction of a second to engage the initial pole bend. his hand may have been at his head but this was (what i believe as an error) later corrected on his part.

Secondly
in the same video after bubka finishes his take off. his arm continues to straighten! Now unless you are refering your immediate pull after the take off to "rowing" . The bicep MUST bend the elbow continuily. UNLESS you pull with your lats or with your upperback due to a retraction of the shoulders. If you analyze this video you will see bubkas shoulders certainly do NOT retract. as a matter of fact there pulled FORWARDS. so that eliminates pulling with the upper back. secondly pulling with your lats can only occur when shoulders are retracted. otherwise all other efforts to pull with your lats just make you "row". (if u dont believe me stand there .. extend your arms and try to pull towards your chest abs or hips with your lats without a shoulder retraction. it doesnt happen). so he could not have been pulling throughout the entire vault. and obviously if his lower arm is straightening throughout the vault (he may not be pushing) hes certainly not pulling with it.


now lastly say someone performed a proper takeoff and pulled directly with the left arm after the takeoff was complete. ok ..... ok.
now the affect that would have on someones inversion would be detrimental. not positive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov4gjUf6fZI

this is a video of a very dear vaulter of mine. granted her takeoff is certainly not free. BUT as you explained if someone finishes there takeoff and pulls with the left arm it would speed up there swing rotation and get them inverted quicker. now sandi has a VERY fast pole run. (shes one of the fastest hurdlers in the nation). and she has plenty of pole bend wich would have allowed her bottom arm to naturally straighten as bubkas would. But shes pulling directly through her bottom arm in her vault and that keeps her arm exessivley bent. and as a result of an early pull it raises her shoulder level to high for her to properly get inverted.

correct me if im wrong but according to my analysis bubka obviously wasnt pulling. and if you continually pull from takeoff it will displace your shoulders. leaving them too high and your hips to low to invert affectively


You did not meditate long enough.

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Unread postby agapit » Sat May 31, 2008 1:33 pm

vaultman18 wrote:
LHSVaulterJJR wrote:after reading and "meditating" over this entire post for hours i find problems with a number of instances. the first that arrises is the perpetual argument within this post amongst applying absolutly no upward force with the bottom arm


(reference)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYaBPDTrVuI




bubka the "prophet" in this video. may have his arm bent, but it still seems to me like he is applying upward pressure for at least a fraction of a second to engage the initial pole bend.


Well you are mistaken. He does not apply upward pressure with the bottom arm. The pole bends due to the energy generated in the run up.

I cannot see him pushing with the bottom arm on this video. He specifically pointed out on several occasions that pushing (bending) pole with the bottom arm is a mistake.

You should meditate more... LOL. Try to abstain from food.
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Unread postby agapit » Sat May 31, 2008 1:37 pm

vaultman18 wrote:(reference)Secondly
in the same video after bubka finishes his take off. his arm continues to straighten! Now unless you are refering your immediate pull after the take off to "rowing" . The bicep MUST bend the elbow continuily. UNLESS you pull with your lats or with your upperback due to a retraction of the shoulders. If you analyze this video you will see bubkas shoulders certainly do NOT retract. as a matter of fact there pulled FORWARDS. so that eliminates pulling with the upper back. secondly pulling with your lats can only occur when shoulders are retracted. otherwise all other efforts to pull with your lats just make you "row". (if u dont believe me stand there .. extend your arms and try to pull towards your chest abs or hips with your lats without a shoulder retraction. it doesnt happen). so he could not have been pulling throughout the entire vault. and obviously if his lower arm is straightening throughout the vault (he may not be pushing) hes certainly not pulling with it.


now lastly say someone performed a proper takeoff and pulled directly with the left arm after the takeoff was complete. ok ..... ok.
now the affect that would have on someones inversion would be detrimental. not positive.


Read my post on "The Swing". I believe it answers your question there.

Amen.
Last edited by agapit on Sat May 31, 2008 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Sat May 31, 2008 1:38 pm

agapit wrote:
You should meditate more... LOL. Try to abstain from food.


You should try 5-6 cups of coffee. Right Roman!

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Unread postby agapit » Sat May 31, 2008 2:07 pm

vaultman18 wrote:
agapit wrote:
You should meditate more... LOL. Try to abstain from food.


You should try 5-6 cups of coffee. Right Roman!


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Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:13 am

LHSVaulterJJR wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov4gjUf6fZI

this is a video of a very dear vaulter of mine. granted her takeoff is certainly not free. BUT as you explained if someone finishes there takeoff and pulls with the left arm it would speed up there swing rotation and get them inverted quicker. now sandi has a VERY fast pole run. (shes one of the fastest hurdlers in the nation). and she has plenty of pole bend wich would have allowed her bottom arm to naturally straighten as bubkas would. But shes pulling directly through her bottom arm in her vault and that keeps her arm exessivley bent. and as a result of an early pull it raises her shoulder level to high for her to properly get inverted.

correct me if im wrong but according to my analysis bubka obviously wasnt pulling. and if you continually pull from takeoff it will displace your shoulders. leaving them too high and your hips to low to invert affectively



Your missing one thing here. Her plant is not the issue. Is it perfect as you said not quite but getting there if she really is pulling as you put it. The issue is watch her swing it is so shallow and quick. You say she is pulling I would bet she really isn't pulling the correct way. THis is can bet because if you look at the position of her bottom arm it is down facing the pit. Even though it is relaxed the pressure is towards the pits this will cause a rowing action to occur. Looking from behind does her pole bend stay pretty much to the front. If you could one get her to swing her bottom elbow out to the side you will see her swing go deeper and longer with no additional work and inversion will happen easier.

This is because when the hands move so does the foot and then the swing is no longer the body moving as a whole with hips leading it is hands and feet leading and the hips fall behind.

This is the sad thing about all athletic movements what you see in the end does not indicate what happened exactly. For a perfect end you need to have all the pieces match up the question is what caused the imperfection and address that issue.

SHe will be a very good vaulter for you and I wish her and you the best of luck. How old is this young lady and what part of the country are you in.

I know we are always looking for fast girls with relaxed plants to start with. Less habits we have to break in college. ;)

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Unread postby agapit » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:39 am

ADTF Academy wrote: ...look at the position of her bottom arm it is down facing the pit. Even though it is relaxed the pressure is towards the pits this will cause a rowing action to occur. Looking from behind does her pole bend stay pretty much to the front. If you could one get her to swing her bottom elbow out to the side you will see her swing go deeper and longer with no additional work and inversion will happen easier.



Good point!
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LHSVaulterJJR
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Unread postby LHSVaulterJJR » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:14 pm

shes only 15 ;) we are in the southeast region ... but weve got alot of work to do
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Unread postby RPVA03 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:03 pm

WOW! After pouring over Agapits posts for several hours, and meditating on it for even longer, I am convinced that he is 100% correct. I tried having some of my athletes pull with their left hand and the changes are dramatic. I didn't think that they would improve so quickly, but they are moving up poles and vaulting higher in just one session. I just hope I can figure out a good way to teach this to my vaulters from square one. Thanks Agapit.

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Unread postby vault3rb0y » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:51 am

If i understand correctly, pulling with a bottom hand will increase your inversion speed, but around the fulcum of the bottom hand instead of the top. Basically, i thought pulling with your bottom hand was a bad thing until you are far enough inverted that you aren't pulling forward, but rather pulling your body up.

Quite honestly i had the opposite effect. Two years ago i used to pull with my bottom arm to swing faster. You end up swinging faster, but aren't really putting more energy into the pole. When i started keeping my hands over my head and not pulling until i was almost inverted, i started to actually vault well. But either way, case studies dont mean one way is the right way, physical facts do.
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Unread postby agapit » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:45 am

RPVA03 wrote:WOW! After pouring over Agapits posts for several hours, and meditating on it for even longer, I am convinced that he is 100% correct. I tried having some of my athletes pull with their left hand and the changes are dramatic. I didn't think that they would improve so quickly, but they are moving up poles and vaulting higher in just one session. I just hope I can figure out a good way to teach this to my vaulters from square one. Thanks Agapit.


You are welcome! Whoever you are.
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Unread postby agapit » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:48 am

vault3rb0y wrote:If i understand correctly, pulling with a bottom hand will increase your inversion speed, but around the fulcum of the bottom hand instead of the top. Basically, i thought pulling with your bottom hand was a bad thing until you are far enough inverted that you aren't pulling forward, but rather pulling your body up.

Quite honestly i had the opposite effect. Two years ago i used to pull with my bottom arm to swing faster. You end up swinging faster, but aren't really putting more energy into the pole. When i started keeping my hands over my head and not pulling until i was almost inverted, i started to actually vault well. But either way, case studies dont mean one way is the right way, physical facts do.


So what are you doing with your left arm after take-off and what do you think you should be doing?

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