Mid Mark Chart

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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Unread postby dj » Sat May 24, 2008 2:39 pm

hello


romans question
say the grip is 5.05 and the height is 6.05m what does the chart say.


dj comment

Your 5.05 meter grip is a 17.17 meter MID..


let me revist this.. and make a point..

a "MID" for a 5.05 grip is right at 17.07.. the 6.05 shows a higher level of "height above grip" than the chart... so i adjusted the "MID" out a little based on the 6.05 jump height.

if the "MID" is not very, very close to 17.00/17.20 i would say this vaulter probally has some issues with the plant takeoff.. big issues. because to jump 6.05 with a 5.05 grip is a tremendous accomplishment with the step "OUT" or "UNDER".

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Unread postby agapit » Sat May 24, 2008 5:50 pm

dj wrote:i take two long jumps.. the first one i jumped 12 feet. the second one i jump 14 feet.. what would have to change to do this?


Option #1 faster speed and same take-off angle
Option #2 Higher Take-off angle and same speed
Option #3 faster speed and higher take-off angle
Option #4 Slower speed & higher take-off angle
Option #5 Higher speed and lower take-off angle

To name a few.
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Unread postby agapit » Sat May 24, 2008 6:19 pm

dj wrote:

if the "MID" is not very, very close to 17.00/17.20 i would say this vaulter probally has some issues with the plant takeoff.. big issues. because to jump 6.05 with a 5.05 grip is a tremendous accomplishment with the step "OUT" or "UNDER".

dj


Well, how close to 17.00 or 17.20 should it be or what is the tolerance level? Is 16.95 still in the range, how about 16.70m. I though the chart is precise. If there is too large of tolerance in the chart, it may be hard to use.

I agree with you if someone is running with mid at 15m they should not expect to clear 6m, but this would be obvious without any tools, right?

How about two people running with the same speed and different stride lengths, as I demonstrated in my earlier example? Do you think its possible?
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Unread postby powerplant42 » Sun May 25, 2008 11:13 am

If one of the two people's form is incorrect, yes. There's one correct way to run, with a set stride length/turn over rate for each speed.
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Unread postby vtcoach » Sun May 25, 2008 11:39 am

powerplant42 wrote:There's one correct way to run, with a set stride length/turn over rate for each speed.


I don't think this is true. Taller elite sprinters like Asafa Powell or Carl Lewis take about 43 or 44 steps to run 100 meters. The shorter 5' 8" or 5' 9" elite sprinters take more like 47 or 48 strides to run 100 meters. Trindon Holliday at 5' 5" takes about 50 or 51 strides to run 100 meters. (I actually counted 53 at the SEC championships but it was hard to get it exact because the camera angle changes). They are all world class sprinters generating about the same velocity. The difference between say 44 strides and 50 strides in 100 meters is 27 centimeters per stride or what would be about 5 feet over the six steps from mid to take-off . Maybe this difference comes down a little when running with a pole but the clear fact remains that Carl Lewis and Trindon Holliday, both technically proficient and biomechanically efficient runners, running the same velocity don't have the same stride length.

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Unread postby powerplant42 » Sun May 25, 2008 11:46 am

One must remember that the pole vault is not the 100. As you stated above, running with a pole is different. Also, we, as vaulters, do not want to accelerate as quickly as possible, again cutting the MID difference. Maybe somebody smarter than me can back me up...
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Unread postby vtcoach » Sun May 25, 2008 1:25 pm

powerplant42 wrote:One must remember that the pole vault is not the 100. As you stated above, running with a pole is different. Also, we, as vaulters, do not want to accelerate as quickly as possible, again cutting the MID difference. Maybe somebody smarter than me can back me up...


Running with the pole isn't that different and I think the acceleration issue you raised actually works the other way. During a hard acceleration there is less of a stride length difference than during speed maintenance... I believe having to do with the fact that the taller runners are also generally heavier.

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Unread postby dj » Sun May 25, 2008 4:20 pm

vtcoach

those sprint numbers are not what i have?? 5 feet for 6 strides is pretty "off"

dj

ps........... i'm on the road ill try to follow up this evening..

there was only 12" difference between marion jones and yana block at 21 steps.. 40 yards from the blocks..

block is 5-4 and jones 5-10..........
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Unread postby dj » Sun May 25, 2008 4:46 pm

see if this helps....

What Contemporary Research Tell us about Sprinting
Illinois Track and Cross Country Coaches Association Clinic
Ken Jakalski
January 12, 2002

Reconsidering the Conceptual Paradigm of Running Mechanics

The history of speed training makes it clear that our philosophical approach changes with the current thinking of the time. For example, several years ago, coaches believed that the only way to increase speed was to increase stride length. Indeed, stride length is a function of running speed, since stride lengths do increase as our speed increases. The natural way for a runner to increase stride length is for him or her to increase the force against the ground in each driving phase. This, of course, requires increased leg strength.

Then, we began almost two decades of sprint training that emphasized what is now referred to as neuro-biomechanics. This approach challenged the commonly held notion that stride frequency was too difficult to improve, and noted that, of the two factors, stride length/stride frequency, frequency was actually more important. The training approach today focuses on reducing the time it takes to get necessary force into the ground. The goal is to increase stride frequency and reduce the time it takes to recycle the leg.

To this end we designed drills to train athletes to place their limbs in more appropriate positions to improve the rate of force development. Since the ground phase was dictated by ground preparation, the key was to generate high speeds backward to minimize breaking forces and maximize propulsive forces. The secret seemed to be the ability to generate high negative thigh speed, or what came to be known in coaching circles as negative vertical velocity.

Unfortunately, the drills we've designed have been based more on coaching insight and observation than on hard science, and it's clear that the questionable carry-over of these drills to actual sprinting has left many coaches and runners frustrated. I have watched many colleagues teaching dorsi-flexion, pawing, clawing, fast foot, stepping over the opposite knee, appropriate arm carriage, etc. only to observe with dismay that these movements don't appear to be repeated when their athletes begin sprinting. What's the problem here? Insufficient time to fix these new patterns of movement? Poor coaching of these techniques? Inappropriate cues? Improper drills for appropriate mechanics?

My contention, based upon a wonderful opportunity I had to study over thirty years worth of locomotion research under the direction of renowned Harvard physiologist Peter Weyand, is that we may very well be attempting to make modifications to non trainable entities. I first began to consider this possibility when conventional speed training could not explain to me how it was possible for an athlete without feet to dorsi-flex, or arms to aid in propulsion, could run 22.94, which is exactly what World Paralympic Sprint Champion Tony Volpentest did in Lisle four years ago!

We believe that athlete's faster muscle fibers can improve stride frequency by reducing the time spent on the ground and in the air. In fact, reducing ground time and air time has been the basic approach to speed training since the early eighties. However, what if we discovered that the mechanical energy to reposition the free swinging limb is actually provided passively through elastic recoil and energy transfer between body segments instead of power generated within muscles?

If this were the case, if muscle speed has little effect on minimum swing time, then training to improve stride frequency, what we now refer to as maximum velocity mechanics, would be of little value.

If frequency is revealed not to be a contributor to faster top end speed, what is? Stride length must be critical. But how do athletes increase stride length? One way to achieve longer strides is to apply greater support forces to the ground. This makes sense, since we know that, at any speed, applying greater force to oppose gravity will increase a runner's vertical velocity at take-off. As a result, the forward distance traveled between steps will increase.

This was the Harvard researchers' hypothesis: that greater ground forces rather than minimum swing times enable sprinters to achieve faster top end speeds. In this process, the team re-considered the elementary mechanics of running. First, they explored the possibility that runners reach maximum velocity simply by taking more frequent steps. Next, they explored their original hypothesis, that speed could be achieved by the athlete increasing mass specific force to oppose gravity during the time the foot is in contact with the ground. Finally, they attempted to take into account the fact speed might be achieved by increasing the forward distance the body moves during this contact period, which is referred to as contact length.

The Harvard team expected to find that top speed was indeed more a product of forces applied to the running surface rather than increases in step frequency or contact length. Why did they feel this would be the case? For one, swing time comprises the majority of total stride time, and is the primary determinant of the frequency of a runner's steps. However, because the range of stride frequencies used by runners at different speeds tends to be narrow, the researchers expected little variation in step frequencies at top speed.

This similarity in step frequency is a difficult concept for most of us to grasp, since video analysis seems to reveal some fundamental yet critical movement “commonalities” consistent at high speed running, and that these commonalities indicate optimal positions of the leg during the recovery cycle. As a result of these observations, we concluded that the fastest sprinters in the world actually reposition their limbs appreciably faster than sub-elite sprinters, but this is not the case.

Second, contact lengths at high speeds do not vary significantly, yet faster runners still take considerably longer strides. Length of contact was clearly not a factor. Even though it would seem as if sprinters would benefit from additional time they have to apply force, but attempting to increase stride length through unnaturally longer steps is actually mechanically inefficient.

So what did the Harvard study reveal?

The more rapid increases in stride frequency as athletes approach top speed are achieved through reductions in both the contact and swing times that make up total stride time. The time when neither foot is on the ground—the aerial time—also decreases as top speed is approached.


Thus, the traditional concept of speed being the product of reduction of the time spent on the ground and in the air was correct, but the process by which this occurs never considered running mechanics as a function of speed—at least not the way the locomotion experts have been understanding mechanics. In other words, we believed that specific limb movements associated with high speed running were trainable entities that could impact upon performance. This is simply not the case.

Faster runners apply greater forces during briefer contact periods, but because of the narrow constraints in the minimum swing times and maximum contact lengths of sprinters, speed is conferred predominantly by an enhanced ability to generate and transmit muscular force to the ground.

The Conclusion
Of the mechanical means by which runners can reach faster top end speeds, the Harvard team found that runners rely on stride frequency to a limited extent, support forces predominantly, and contact lengths not at all.

The mission statement of previous speed programs was to reduce the time spent on the ground and in the air. The Faster Than Gravity mission statement, at least based on the new paradigm proposed in the Harvard study, is to alter support forces applied to the ground by one tenth of one body weight, which will be sufficient to alter top speed by one full meter per second!

The Limits to Top End Speed
Top speed is reached when increases in speed and decreases in foot ground contact times reduce effective aerial times to the minimum values, providing sufficient time to swing the leg into position for the next step. In other words, Leigh Kolka's theory that we can sprint as fast as we can put the free swinging limb in front of us was indeed accurate, but for reasons that, at the time, none of us truly understood.

The fastest runners do have faster muscle fibers and do have great muscular power available to reposition their limbs, but the reality is that they reposition their limbs little or no faster than average and slow runners do.

Activation of the flexor muscles and tendons that reposition the limb as a runner swings his leg is considerable at high speeds, but this activation likely occurs to increase the storage and release of mechanical energy in the oscillating limb rather than to generate mechanical power chemically within these muscles.

Once again, faster muscles fibers confer faster top end speeds not by decreasing minimum swing times, but by increasing the maximum rate at which force can be applied to the ground. An enhanced ability to quickly reposition their limbs in the air is not the reason why sprinters achieve faster top end speeds. They are simply applying greater support forces to the ground.



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Unread postby vtcoach » Mon May 26, 2008 2:41 am

That article DJ posted is interesting but it does not shed light on the matter at hand, i.e. there is no data on stride length vs athlete height. My original post was based on bits and piecies of data I found around along with some time spent watching 100 meter dash races of elite sprinters in slow motion and counting their strides. The best thing however is to find a more current and larger data set like this one which I found in an old ariticle in "Modern Athlete and Coach". The data is from the late 80s.

Code: Select all

                                      Stride     Stride
                      100m  Num. of   Length   Frequency
Athlete       Height  time  Strides  (meters)  (per sec)
------------  ------- ----- ------- ---------  ---------
M. Gohr       165 cm  10.91   55.8     1.81      5.22
S. Gladish    163 cm  10.82   51.7     1.95      4.88
H. Dreschler  181 cm  10.91   46.5     2.17      4.32 
E. Ashford    165 cm  10.91   52.0     1.94      4.83
A. Nuneva     167 cm  10.92   50.0     2.01      4.69
M. Zirova     170 cm  11.22   50.0     2.02      4.56

The number of strides in the chart above for elite women for 100 meters varies from 46.5 strides to 55.8 strides.

100 meters divided by 46.5 is an average stride length of 2.15 meters
100 meters divided by 55.8 is an average stride lenght of 1.79 meters

both athletes had the same exact time but the stride length difference is:
2.15 meters minus 1.79 meters = 36 centimeters per stride

over six strides that is 6 x 36 = 216 centimeters = 85 inches = 7 ft 1 inch

if there is an error in this math please let me know

If you compute a simple correlation coefficient between the height column and the stride length column you get 84%. That is to say that 84% of the variance in stride length of these world class sprinters is explained by their height. It will never be 100% as there are many other individual differences where a short sprinter has longer than average strides for his height, etc. I'd love to see some more of this kind of hard data for current sprinters and it must be out there.

Cheers.

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Unread postby agapit » Mon May 26, 2008 9:59 am

vtcoach wrote:
powerplant42 wrote:There's one correct way to run, with a set stride length/turn over rate for each speed.


I don’t think this is true. Taller elite sprinters like Asafa Powell or Carl Lewis take about 43 or 44 steps to run 100 meters. The shorter 5’ 8â€
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Unread postby ADTF Academy » Mon May 26, 2008 1:34 pm

We are all missing one key factor here.


Ideal Takeoff Spot.

Speed is speed. Speed is determined by stride length and frequency we all know this. To hit a speed you need a corelation between the two usually speaking if one side goes up the other side goes down, but speed remains the same and total distance covered remains the same. 100 meters race is 100 meters no matter your stride length and frequency if you hit the same speed then a certain time will be produced.

Take a look at the hurdles they have x distance between each hurdle. If they are too fast they run out of room and need to adjust their stride length and frequency. Vaulters are kind of the same they get x steps to complete their approach if they run out of room they adjust.

Now to the charts. The charts dectate a certain take off spot and everything so I figure is determined from that spot.

Now the question at hand is does a taller vaulter takeoff closer or further way than a shorter vaulter and the other way around.

Obviously a shorter vaulter needs to take off further away do to the lower pole angle when the pole is in the box. With that in mind what else will change every mark down the track including the MID MARK. Not because of a speed variation but because of an Ideal take off spot variation. Secondly, what is the vaulters take off angle. A vaulter who tends to jump more at takeoff can in return takeoff slightly closer and still be allowed to finish the final stride compared to someone who takes off flater and needs to be further away.

Example would be DJ's 18-0 clearance gripping 15-9 and takeoff of 13-4. Now what is that 13-4 TO spot based on. Get someone who is 6-6 and check that spot compared to someone who is 5-9. I bet that is not the ideal spot for everyone in that realm of heights and with the range of take off angles.

Shouldn't in the end it come down to learning the rhythm of your athlete. As the athlete matures and grows (produces more power) so does the rhythm and job of the coach to adjust for it. You know coaching is part art and part science.

If an athlete is fast and can learn to control it shouldn't it be the job of the coach to harness that speed.

Through practice on normal weather conditions if my top athlete hits x spot with 6 steps to go I can tell you take off spot to the inch as long as he hits his 2 steps to go mark. Not based on DJ's or anyone elses chart but based on his own person chart. Which doesn't exactly match DJ's because of where his Ideal Take Off Spot is and because he has a slight hitch in his stride that puts him slightly off DJ's chart. Are we trying to fix the hittch yes, but not right now its an Olympic Year.

What happens if you run into a shallow or deep box. Shouldn't these figures change. Ideal takeoff spot will change hence so should mid mark.


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