Pole Vault Manifesto

[volteur]

If the swing is only a reaction to the take-off, then why even train it? Why not just train your take-off instead? One trains it because it is an opportunity to conserve/add energy into the system with the abdominal muscles. The 'reaction' you're talking about gets the swing started, but the vaulter must ACTIVELY swing, that is, not just let momentum do all the work.

yes agreed there is some sort of active component. But what exactly? Do you swing the foot like a kick or maybe like a tap from gymnastics. Or?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_l-4YC1VSk

I see in this video a compensation. He has to swing his foot a little extra to replace a lack of energy from his arms. Still, a lot of his swing energy is still created from actively creating the C position during the backswing. Just not so much energy from the arms and shoulders.

Volt

[golfdane]

If the swing is only a reaction to the take-off, then why even train it? Why not just train your take-off instead? One trains it because it is an opportunity to conserve/add energy into the system with the abdominal muscles. The 'reaction' you're talking about gets the swing started, but the vaulter must ACTIVELY swing, that is, not just let momentum do all the work.

yes agreed there is some sort of active component. But what exactly? Do you swing the foot like a kick or maybe like a tap from gymnastics. Or?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_l-4YC1VSk

I see in this video a compensation. He has to swing his foot a little extra to replace a lack of energy from his arms. Still, a lot of his swing energy is still created from actively creating the C position during the backswing. Just not so much energy from the arms and shoulders.

Volt

He's using the exact same mechanics (a kick of the lower extremeties at the right time) that a gymnast is using when making full swings in the high bar. The run-up speed and take-off will create the arch when the athlete feels the resistance of the top hand, and his hip flexors, abdominals and eventually lats, will react to that tension, and contract (or the athlete should strive for that), in the exact same way that the flexion of the foot serves as a pretension of the calf muscle, that should be released just prior to the foot hitting the ground. In the drill, the arch is created, but the position isn't any different than what is achieved in real pole vaulting.
This action will load the pole. The forces in action are clearly visible by the amount the high bar flexes when someone is doing this drill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqS-GGiC ... re=related

You can add a run-up and take-off to the drill, and achieve the exact same thing, and achieve the arch from the same mechanics experienced in a real vault, but you only make one roll at a time (unless you create the arch artificially on the rest). Couldn't find an exact match at youtube, but this is pretty close:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvqj_TKVIHs
(note that 2nd athlete drops his lead leg immediately after take-off, and brings it back into the preferred position afterwards.

The arch can be achieved by the coach bringing the athlete into the arch (hold foot and press on the back), and the roll-up can be easily achieved (but requires more than the athlete).

[volteur]

He's using the exact same mechanics (a kick of the lower extremities at the right time) that a gymnast is using when making full swings in the high bar. The run-up speed and take-off will create the arch when the athlete feels the resistance of the top hand, and his hip flexors, abdominals and eventually lats, will react to that tension, and contract (or the athlete should strive for that), in the exact same way that the flexion of the foot serves as a pretension of the calf muscle, that should be released just prior to the foot hitting the ground. In the drill, the arch is created, but the position isn't any different than what is achieved in real pole vaulting.
This action will load the pole. The forces in action are clearly visible by the amount the high bar flexes when someone is doing this drill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqS-GGiC ... re=related

You can add a run-up and take-off to the drill, and achieve the exact same thing, and achieve the arch from the same mechanics experienced in a real vault, but you only make one roll at a time (unless you create the arch artificially on the rest). Couldn't find an exact match at youtube, but this is pretty close:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvqj_TKVIHs
(note that 2nd athlete drops his lead leg immediately after take-off, and brings it back into the preferred position afterwards.

The arch can be achieved by the coach bringing the athlete into the arch (hold foot and press on the back), and the roll-up can be easily achieved (but requires more than the athlete).

Nice. I like the explanation in the first paragraph. Straight off the bat or a draft? I don't know about the coach holding that position for the athlete though. Also i think it is a slightly different movement than a normal high bar gymnastics swing. Paul Burgess suffers a lack of distinction in this aspect i feel.

So who are those two guys. Personally i like the second one better. He has more of the correct look in his upper body although he drops his drive knee as you said. The first guy gets clotheslined a bit as he hits the highbar. Got any more?

sim

[golfdane]

Nice. I like the explanation in the first paragraph. Straight off the bat or a draft? I don't know about the coach holding that position for the athlete though. Also i think it is a slightly different movement than a normal high bar gymnastics swing. Paul Burgess suffers a lack of distinction in this aspect i feel.

So who are those two guys. Personally i like the second one better. He has more of the correct look in his upper body although he drops his drive knee as you said. The first guy gets clotheslined a bit as he hits the highbar. Got any more?

sim

Straight of the bat....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPzkIH5oEzg
This vid is a robot built from Lego Mindstorm. A toy/tool, that can be computerprogrammed to perform certain tasks. In this instance, make swings using a harmonic amplifying movement. Herein lies the rub: Timing the move to the exact right time causes a harmonic amplification of the swing causing a full inversion, and in the video full swings on a high bar. The high bar drills learns the athlete to feel when and how to swing most efficiently.

The coach forcing the athlete into the arch is done primarily, to let the athlete feel the prestretch of the muscles that happens when you arch. Still, if the athlete should feel like it, could she make an inversion using the same kick of the legs. IOW, the swing isn't needed to make the inversion on the high bar. It just facilitates it greatly, and isn't an artificial injection into the drill, since we've established, that the swing happens when your top hand feels the braking from the pole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI4JExF0U8o
About 1 min. into the vid.
Strong athlete, that easily inverts on a high bar from a straight down position. The kick just makes it so much easier and faster.

Another excellent drill that imitates the take-off, the arch, the kick, and roll-up of the pelvis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeTPgONnrV0

And from rings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn5LIiHm ... re=related

[OH-IOvaulter]

It actually looks like the young man on the high bar is swinging back and utilizing momentum to initiate the swing up. A strong swing should be able to pull one's self to inversion without the initiation by way of momentum.

[golfdane]

It actually looks like the young man on the high bar is swinging back and utilizing momentum to initiate the swing up. A strong swing should be able to pull one's self to inversion without the initiation by way of momentum.

Yup, but the same momentum exists in actual jumping, so that's not a problem at all. I agree, that performing the drill without that swing increases the strength gained from the drill, but might not learn the athlete to time the swing (something that the rope drill does really well). The Lego video clearly shows, that an ill-timed kick acts counter to the swing, ands stops the swinging motion. Kids on swings learn how the whip of the legs and body can make the swing go higher and lower.

It's the timing of the swing that actually allows a minor drop of the trailing leg, because a swing that is too fast won't create the harmonic amplification that is desirable (the swing runs out of steam too early, and a passive phase occurs, so to speak).

[volteur]

the way i prefer to do that drill is to hang stationary and then do the movment in one single action without any momentum. I hang and then pull up into a strong C position and from there i initiate the inversion. Then i return to the starting position again.

[OH-IOvaulter]

But if a vaulter can continuously strengthen and speed up his swing through harder drilling, and with the knowledge that the swing cannot be initiated until the exact moment that the plant and take off is finished, why not focus on that and try to over emphasize it to the point that the swing is so strong and fast that it gives the vaulter the ability to begin to work ahead of the pole at an earlier moment?

[golfdane]

the way i prefer to do that drill is to hang stationary and then do the movment in one single action without any momentum. I hang and then pull up into a strong C position and from there i initiate the inversion. Then i return to the starting position again.

Yes, but that does not teach your body how to interact with the swing.
But doing it like this (stationary), isolates the muscular action, and there's as such nothing wrong with the drill. Still, there's a muscular timing that has to be learned, so the neurons fire at just the right time, triggered by input from the swing (like how much force is affecting your hand).

You can do it stationary rather easily, but until you learn the timing, is it harder to do it while swinging.

[golfdane]

But if a vaulter can continuously strengthen and speed up his swing through harder drilling, and with the knowledge that the swing cannot be initiated until the exact moment that the plant and take off is finished, why not focus on that and try to over emphasize it to the point that the swing is so strong and fast that it gives the vaulter the ability to begin to work ahead of the pole at an earlier moment?

It's all about optimums.... There's no point in being fully inverted too soon.

The swing speed that allows you to store a maximum amount of energy into the pole, and get you fully inverted at the exact right time without a passive phase, should be the optimum.

I think, that the perfect drills teaches the body how the kick can interact with the momentum of the swing. IOW, combine the run-up/take-off with an immediate kick towards inversion. Still, it allows only for one repetition....

[volteur]

the way i prefer to do that drill is to hang stationary and then do the movment in one single action without any momentum. I hang and then pull up into a strong C position and from there i initiate the inversion. Then i return to the starting position again.

Yes, but that does not teach your body how to interact with the swing.
But doing it like this (stationary), isolates the muscular action, and there's as such nothing wrong with the drill. Still, there's a muscular timing that has to be learned, so the neurons fire at just the right time, triggered by input from the swing (like how much force is affecting your hand).

You can do it stationary rather easily, but until you learn the timing, is it harder to do it while swinging.

But i think it does at the most fundamental level although it probably requires some developed specific strength to achieve. Part of it is lifting yourself in one single pulse like action to the C position where you have a moment of freedom before the pulse into inversion. Part of the inversion is to lift yourself slightly upward and backward from the shoulders with straight arms to counterbalance the hip rise. The leg is just attached to the hip rise. If the deeper abdominal muscles are strong enough to stabilise the pelvis then the leg is just an extension of the hip and doesn't actually swing.

When i do the drill where i run towards the high bar i have to do the same thing as the first guy in your video and jump upward into the bar a little instead of totally under it. The second guy in the video goes too under it and so gets the clothesline effect. I don't see this effect as a good one. It introduces a passive phase into the vault ala this manifesto.

volteur

[agapit]

[quote="volteurThe second guy in the video goes too under it and so gets the clothesline effect. I don't see this effect as a good one. It introduces a passive phase into the vault ala this manifesto.

volteur[/quote]

I would think of it in this simple way:

The vertical speed component of the center of gravity is very small (as in vertical vector component) at the take-off. Now our objective is to increase this vertical component as much as possible (the main factor in the final height clearance). This acceleration will require number of force inputs, furthermore it is better if this force inputs are applied without any interruptions (passive phases).This is the essence of the continuous chain model.

What do we need to do to achieve this continuous input? We would need to put our bodies in the most favorable position. Now you can read manifesto from this perspective and see if it makes more sense.