Pole Vault Manifesto

[golfdane]

Longjumpers and triplejumpers has the benefit of being able to use their arms to create lift. Vaulters are seriously limited here.

It seems, that you try to put too much into the term "pre-jump". It isn't about maximum air time, or reaching any apex. It's about giving the CG a deliberate direction without loosing too much speed, just prior (the famous "hundreths of a second") to the pole starting to load.

So, while you might argue, that the "hundreths of a second" constitutes a passive phase (and one might argue, that the lead leg makes (or can make) it "active" (continued "UP") due to inertia when the motion is stopped), does it set the rest of the jump up (IMO), much more favorably.

[dj]

good morning

How on earth do we create an "up impulse", if not by jumping? IMO, are we better served by giving away a little speed and create a lift of the CG. IOW, jump. And this jump should (IMO) be finished (toes leaving ground) no later than when the pole hits the back of the box

An "up impulse" is a jump.. “A jump is considered a transfer of momentumâ€

[volteur]

dj can you tell me where to find that first half of the paper from 2004.

I have just been on the phone to a colleague who has informed he that he was the interpreter for Petrov in Australia in 1986. His name is Efim Shuravetsky and he lives in Melbourne and the two of you go way back i am told Alan. I asked Efim about this take off, pre-jump thing and he said he knew this is what Alan proposed. He then said that in no way did Petrov ever mention a pre-jump and his emphasis in fact was on hand directly above the foot in a straight line at takeoff . Anyway, he said i should ring his son Julian who spent 6 months in Formia, apparently as Petrov's request after a visit to Australia in about 1995 or 6. So i will be ringing him for some info 'from the horses mouth' so to speak.

cheers

Volteur

[master]

It seems, that you try to put too much into the term "pre-jump". It isn't about maximum air time, or reaching any apex. It's about giving the CG a deliberate direction without loosing too much speed, just prior (the famous "hundreths of a second") to the pole starting to load.

Very well stated! And I agree with the content.

As is often the case on PVP, many posters assign their own meaning to words others have written. This is why I often ask for clarification. It doesn't take a whole lot more words (if they are chosen carefully) to communicate unambiguously. Of course that does require thoughtful consideration of what is written.

- master

[master]

sorry, how do i say it otherwise? If there is a pulling action after takeoff i assume the force of that pull is in a specific direction. I'm wondering what that specific direction is. Where is one applying the force?

Thanks. Now I understand what you are asking. I assume you are referring to a pull that Agapit describes. As such, I would defer comment to him.

- master

[master]

(posted for Altius by master)

Altius writes:
"Shall we vote on whether readers believe that they represent athletes - including the three male highest vaulters in the history of the vault - demonstrating an upspringing take off" IE Are they are jumping up or look as though they are going to jump up?

What do YOU think folks?

[master]

(posted for Altius by master)

Altius writes:
"If Petrov does not believe in an upspringing take off why does Isinbayeva do many repetitions of a drill which clearly emphasises an upspringing take off?"

[volteur]

It seems, that you try to put too much into the term "pre-jump". It isn't about maximum air time, or reaching any apex. It's about giving the CG a deliberate direction without loosing too much speed, just prior (the famous "hundreths of a second") to the pole starting to load.

Very well stated! And I agree with the content.

As is often the case on PVP, many posters assign their own meaning to words others have written. This is why I often ask for clarification. It doesn't take a whole lot more words (if they are chosen carefully) to communicate unambiguously. Of course that does require thoughtful consideration of what is written.

- master

I mostly agree with golfdane's definition so that isn't really the problem. The thing is i've noticed a line of argumentation that Altius is using as a rationale for a fairly serious proposition. I think the proposition is that the pre-jump is an extension of the free-takeoff and that a free-takeoff is a failed pre-jump. Now i'm not sure where the pre-jump became better than than the free-takeoff, better than Petrov himself prescribes as the ideal. I see an incredible arrogance in that and i'm sure i'm not alone.

I'm glad you ask for clarification. It in fact helps me clarify it better in my head. It's part of that mutual learning thing that can go on. The other main problem i have with Altius resides in this. I keep asking him for a specific application of his theory to a situation i come across. he refers me to a page i don't have access to or ignores the question. I ask for a definition i get these evasion tactics. I ask for an intention i get evasion tactics.

I don't understand if he is such an expert and this is his own theory why he can't wax lyrical about it with ease. Apply it to any simple question by a novice or discuss deep concepts with a peer. Ever since the start of this thread all he has done is quote page references whilst everyone else has been discussing the intricacies of what is a brilliant manifesto, much prior to when i became involved. I see a serious lack of honesty, both self and with us.

Please for one last time what IS the actual intention of the pre-jump? Give us something we can get our teeth stuck into.

[master]

I seem to recall people commenting that some photos in the book BTB show a pole being loaded based on the pole being slightly bent. If I am correct about the drill that Izzy is doing in the photo above, it is a pole run on an open track. Her pole tip is not in a box and yet it shows a slight bend. Of course that is what one would expect of a long, flexible object being held in the air from only one end. Therefore, I don't think that one can definitively conclude the pole is loaded when one sees this amount of bend in a photo.

- master.

[volteur]

It's the moment before it bends a fraction more. Besides izzy is applying extra force into the pole, check her left arm pressure.

I think this particular drill is called 'not losing the pole'. So it is a very aritifical drill and it's purpose, although i will check this, is to learn to keep contact with the pole from the ground into. It has no connection to actually taking off properly. This is a bit like a scam.

[vaultwest]

Voltuer
I have been following this latest round of comments and no offense but your kinda nuts aren't you. I mean are you trying to be weird, funny or do you think you are entertaining. I know I am not the sharpest tool in the work shed but I DON'T GET YOU either you are pulling our legs or you are so off base as to be dangerous to some of the younger members on this board who may take your comments as true. The Drill that Isa is demonstrating is for pole drop, planting motion coordination and timing, jumping ability at takeoff and controlling the pole tip so that it does not touch the ground prematurely. It has nothing to do with keeping ground contact with the pole and it certainly is not an artificial drill. Most of your comments have seemed strange at best and bad/wrong at worst but this last one put me over the limit and accusing Alan of a sham I guess was the last straw. I think you should just leave it alone. Have a nice day
Vault On

[powerplant42]

I think this particular drill is called 'not losing the pole'. So it is a very aritifical drill and it's purpose, although i will check this, is to learn to keep contact with the pole from the ground into. It has no connection to actually taking off properly. This is a bit like a scam.

Yeah, I can't believe that Bubka guy even could clear 18' after doing THIS drill... Wow, come to think of it, I guess a lot of really well respected coaches scam their athletes all the time!

A SCAM!!!?