Pole Vault Manifesto

[PVstudent]

Well Volteur, the irony is that you used Newton's law (the 1st from which the 2nd and 3rd are derived) to argue for your understanding of Einsteinian Relativity.

The best I can say is that this response,which by the way was clearly expressed, merely provides evidence that you have not understand anything substantive concerning Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

Long live Newton's Laws of Motion. May pole vaulters continue to use them and be realistic about their capacity to defy gravitational force.

Volteur I wish you every success with your coaching.

[volteur]

Do i battle you back with smart a** sarcastic comments or not? probably not the best approach so - good luck with your coaching. (i mean it).

There are plenty of websites that can explain the difference between Newton and Einstein if you don't like my way.

No irony because i said this 'It didn't mean he rejected Newton's laws they just became modified'.

To look further, Newton's laws became a subset of Einstein's laws. They are encompassed within the broader definition Einstein supplied. Newton's first law is the inertia one.

"Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it." Newton.

Einstein came along and said except when gravity affects that object.

Anyway stick with whatever you want. It's not like Newton will lead you wrong. Just don't let the third law occur too much during takeoff i would say.

Volteur.

ps if you query something specific then we can get somewhere, just attacking doesn't give me much to go with

pps i hope that was worth something to someone

[volteur]

So i apologise and you decide to now attack me? Weird.

Is PVP your little world Alan? Do you rule here? Do i threaten your status or something?

Debate me if you will. Or not. If not why bother to even say anything? You are now attacking me personally instead of what i am saying. . Do they have this phrase 'Play the ball, don't play the man' in Australia?

I said earlier i'm not interested in guru status, that is what you want. You just think i must be because that is what you are doing. I have a different agenda. That is why i remain anonymous. As for coaching credentials i have some decent ones. Not as good as yours but pretty reasonable. They aren't really relevant though are they. Surely you can deduce from my words my understanding of this thing called pole vault. So if i challenge? Don't be a wussy. It's sport.

Now, after all that, what specifically do you have a problem with?

Volteur

[volteur]

The reason the bungee bent was because of angular momentum, not changing gravity or how it effects your mass. Otherwise there would be no reason to swing once your trail leg passes under your body, and we would be more encouraged to swing DOWN to load the pole than to jump up into the vault.

Also, that sinking you are talking about, is something vaulters should strive to reduce. I know you said you cited the petrov model in your work, but the petrov model is essentially based off of stiff pole principles. You want to keep your COM and hips moving throughout the entire vault, ideally to add the velocity of your take off with the rotational velocity of your swing.

Hey

Possibly the reason the bungee bent was from a changing angle but not just from the momentum although i like the way you think. Try it again as slow as you can and see what happens when your hand and foot pass to in front of you. Even by removing all momentum this effect still occurs.

The sinking is to be avoided for sure. That is why it is important to know about it and where it occurs and why and so on. As it is just about to occur, if we know that it is coming, we can prepare by initiating the inversion just prior to it, so we invert instead of sink. The better we time the inversion at the point where the sinking would occur, the less energy we will lose during that phase.

cheers

[AeroVault]

Wow, I see some shots were fired over the weekend. Hope no one got hurt.

I have vaulted on and off for the past 10 years or so, but only started coaching recently. In an attempt to not pass along any of my own bad habits, I've spent some time studying the vault. I believe I understand it fairly well, but I am still learning and will always continue to do so.

I have also studied physics and aerospace, and frankly don't see any ties between relativity and vaulting. Newtonian gravity is a subset of relativistic mechanics. Still, it is a model that works great on the surface of the Earth! If pole vault were to come in a package it would read "no relativity required".

As [the sinking] is just about to occur, if we know that it is coming, we can prepare by initiating the inversion just prior to it, so we invert instead of sink

Yes i agree gravity is a constant force however its action on us is not constant, we can allow it to act to a lesser or greater extent on our body

Gravity is a constant force, and our mass is constant during the vault (hopefully ), so the action is also constant. One good points in those quotes though... we do want to invert before sinking. We don't really have much choice about when gravity affects us, so we have to settle for inverting as soon as possible. That happens to be right after takeoff.

Volteur, I am always interested in new theories and models for vaulting. However, I share the opinion that the acceleration of gravity does not assist the athlete here. I think we all should be careful with wording in our posts since one phrase can change the post's entire meaning.

Read up a bit more, then good luck with coaching (sincerely)

-Kevin Peterman

[volteur]

Hi aerovault same here with not wanting to pass on any bad habits, this forum thing is part of that desire i guess.

Id like to continue. You said that

"If pole vault were to come in a package it would read "no relativity required".

I think if it said 'works under Newtonian Laws' i would agree. 'No relativity required' would mean that relativity isn't operating so we don't have to pay attention to it. I think it is operating and it is advantageous to pay attention to it. I guess the explanation about body parts counterbalancing didn't fly? Which bit didn't work for you?

you then said further on that

"Gravity is a constant force, and our mass is constant during the vault (hopefully Wink), so the action is also constant."

I can't argue with that. I can only say that we can chnage how gravity affects us. I don't know the math yet wonder if we possess less weight as we are leaving the ground in a jump compared to when we are just about to land back on the ground. I don't know if it is measurable with current technology but i see it as common knowledge so much so that i use it as a term when i coach. You need more weight in your knee as you rotate or put more weight into your elbows as they swing past your ribs. Weight as a concept separate from the mathematical model that calculates weight as gravity x mass. Weight that we can manipulate with our intention. One good trick is to get someone to try and lift you. Try both the heavy and the light versions. Be as light as possible and have your mate lift you. Then be as heavy as possible and do the same. See if there is any difference in how heavy you feel to him.

cheers aero

[vault3rb0y]

Hey

Possibly the reason the bungee bent was from a changing angle but not just from the momentum although i like the way you think. Try it again as slow as you can and see what happens when your hand and foot pass to in front of you. Even by removing all momentum this effect still occurs.

The sinking is to be avoided for sure. That is why it is important to know about it and where it occurs and why and so on. As it is just about to occur, if we know that it is coming, we can prepare by initiating the inversion just prior to it, so we invert instead of sink. The better we time the inversion at the point where the sinking would occur, the less energy we will lose during that phase.

cheers

Are you referring to a lever-type weight? The kind that makes a pole feel heavier when you hold it in front of you compared to holding it vertically? This is possibly true, but still, swinging with a fast trail leg WILL increase the tension and therefore force on the fulcrum (your hands). I just used the bungee as an analogy, i havent actually done that in a while. But i could picture in my head how it worked. Take this most basic example of energy through angular velocity-

You have a bucket full of water. You swing it around your head slowly and it pours out all over you. So you fill it up again and swing it very fast. It doesnt come out on top of you. Why? The angular velocity was greater than 9.8m/s, or gravity, and pushed outward on the bucket, keeping the water in the bucket. That force is very real and can be used in swinging a bucket over your head or spinning in a circle to keep it from pouring out. That same unit of force applies to your foot when you swing, and in essence does what you were hinting on in an earlier post.... applies more "gravity" to your foot. It will feel heavier. The truth is, it only feels heavier because gravity is measured in m/s^2, or even newtons if you use your legs mass, and so is angular velocity. It can come out to newtons. So add the force of angular velocity to the force of gravity and you feel like you are using the force of gravity to added energy to the pole..... but if you can picture the energy equation, that gravity force is on both sides of the equation, since it is constant. So the net force added is only that of the angular velocity. It will look something like this in VERY basic terms....

Force (N of momentum) of takeoff (F= V x M) + force (N) of angular velocity ( F= M x V^2/R)+ force of gravity ( N=M x A of G (9.8m/s^2))+ acceleration of arms pulling on pull (hell if i know... in N)= total energy in the pole. The big deal is that no matter how much energy you put into the pole, you have to fight gravity to recoil the pole. So the net energy releasing you off the pole is that whole equation= energy - force of gravity. If you can get the energy equation without the energy given by gravity to be high enough, you can calculate with your mass how much hang time and how much push you should be able to achieve once off the pole. I hope that opens your mind a little to some of the issues we are talking about. If we have to go to an equational level we will.

[PVstudent]

I can't argue with that. I can only say that we can chnage how gravity affects us. I don't know the math yet wonder if we possess less weight as we are leaving the ground in a jump compared to when we are just about to land back on the ground. I don't know if it is measurable with current technology but i see it as common knowledge so much so that i use it as a term when i coach. You need more weight in your knee as you rotate or put more weight into your elbows as they swing past your ribs. Weight as a concept separate from the mathematical model that calculates weight as gravity x mass. Weight that we can manipulate with our intention. One good trick is to get someone to try and lift you. Try both the heavy and the light versions. Be as light as possible and have your mate lift you. Then be as heavy as possible and do the same. See if there is any difference in how heavy you feel to him.

Yes it is measurable and has been done in competition at the Helsinki World Championship for both men and women pole vaulters.

What on earth do you mean by weight as a seperate concept? Weight that we can manipulate with our intention?

This conjures up visions of Master Yoda lifting, by mentally focused intention and of course the powers of the "force", Luke Skywalkers space craft out of the swamp!

Aerovault is added to the list of disbelievers in your explanations when it comes to practical earthbound practical physics of how human motion is produced.

Read your statements quoted above. They are risable, you can't be serious!

I enjoy a laugh but I think this joke has gone on for long enough.

May your concept of weight force be with you and hopefully we will see your 6.4m male and 5.4m female pole vaulters explode on to the world scene soon!

Til then Goodbye Volteur, you are a fun guy!

[volteur]

thanks PVstudent

Did you try the experiment? Another way to look at it is to remember those times when your body feels really heavy like after a hard session or with a big hangover or when you are really sick. There are other times when you feel as light as a feather, springy. We can feel both within us at different times can we not? Most of the time we are somewhere between like probably right now.

It is becoming quite common knowledge that your thoughts can affect your body. Negative emotions drain us with energy and positive ones fill us. There are plenty of hard line science experiments and a few recently popular DVD's like What the Bleep and The Secret. Besides that we probably all agree in the power of positive thinking. That's been around for ages.

The practical application? Negative thoughts weigh you down and positive thoughts lift you up. Since our perception of weight changes then possibly we can have some conscious control over it. Not quite like Yoda but something within at least.

cheers

I'm glad things are becoming fun

but seriously i'm not tripping here just seeing how things fly and what can be tied together to make things simpler. Possibly having an opinion of one is tough and in here i feel alone but out here it's all sweet, plenty of agreement.

[volteur]

[quote="vault3rb0y"]

hey, i was actually talking about what i said in the post above just now but what you have said is really excellent. Applied knowledge.

So if we take that example of the angular momentum of the foot. It gives us more energy from the swing than otherwise. There is the problem in the fact it is going downward though but i think this is solved in two ways. The first is that the foot is swinging on an arc as so as it's hits the vertical plane of the body it has begun to move forward and then upward instead. The second is that the hands push in the exact opposite direction at the same time as the foot so the forces essentially cancel out that part of the vertical motion and instead apply the added force forward into the pole.

If you take the example of say bending your trailing leg before your swing
than there will be less angular momentum from the swing. Why?

cheers

ps anywhere you can get onto a bungee to see if you sink without any momentum?

[vault3rb0y]

If you take the example of say bending your trailing leg before your swing
than there will be less angular momentum from the swing. Why?

because of the formula i stated above... the force depends about R, which is the radial length of the arch from your top hand to the bottom of your foot. Bringing it in before you swing shortens the radius, therefore less momentum.


To be honest, i have had a lot of thoughts like the other guys on here, i am just trying to get you on the same page as the rest of the vaulting world. I have never heard of ideas like this, which is good in a sense because it forces us to try to understand new ideas. But not when they break the laws of physics. That, combined with the fact that you will not state your name or your athletes in Europe, lead me to think this might be another "Former athlete comeback" hoax, and this is really someone on the board trying to prove a point. Look up "former college athlete makes comeback for '08 olympic trials" if you are a real person to know what i am referring to.

[sooch90]

So i apologise and you decide to now attack me? Weird.

Is PVP your little world Alan? Do you rule here? Do i threaten your status or something?

Beep, red flag. Let's not annoy Mr. Launder okay? He's a very helpful and insightful poster on here, way more helpful and insightful than you.

Pole vault power is clearly NOT his "little world" considering that he has many other ways of teaching and discussing his ideas and petrov's ideas (via many camps, clinics, books, etc). He's a widely respected person outside of pole vault power.

You on the otherhand, have so far demonstrated your ideas only through debating on PVP. So to me, it seems that PVP is your little world. Funny thing is, you don't seem to have respect or status, even on here...