Pole Vault Manifesto

[volteur]

Hi and thanks again for replying

Apapit - You really should think of the vault as a giant UP all the way to clearance. The most important component determining the height of the clearance is a vertical speed or the center of gravity. If your mental picture is “downâ€

[agapit]

me - I guess i need better terms. I don't see this down as being actively done at rockback just as there isn't an active down after clearance. Both are passive phases and all we can do is optimise our body position to allow them to work optimally. The active phases are takeoff and pull i think. They are also the 'up' phases. Active - passive- active - passive. On - off - on - off in this active sense.

In a profile of the athletes CofG as it rises through the vault, there are four phases. The takeoff phase rises rapidly and then slows. The rotation in the rockback phase occurs as this rise slows. The pull initiates the next rapid increase in vertical motion which eventually slows and stops at the peak of clearance. Then the athlete falls back to the pit thanks to gravity. Is it up - down - up - down or up - slowly up - up - down, or possibly even both, just in different senses.

Please, please, please there is ONE "ON" phase and no on/off/on/off. The modern model is focused on eliminating the off phases. It is not a rotation it is inversion or continuous pull/push over the bar. During the inversion the arms, lats, etc. constantly and without interruption rise (accelerate) the body (center of gravity) up and over the bar.

You should not think of it as "eventually slows and stops" you should think of it as a maximum energy point (loaded with potential energy) at the highest point over the bar. The work should be so intense as to “get out your skinâ€

[volteur]

[quote="agapit"]

Please, please, please there is ONE "ON" phase and no on/off/on/off. The modern model is focused on eliminating the off phases. It is not a rotation it is inversion or continuous pull/push over the bar. During the inversion the arms, lats, etc. constantly and without interruption rise (accelerate) the body (center of gravity) up and over the bar.

You should not think of it as "eventually slows and stops" you should think of it as a maximum energy point (loaded with potential energy) at the highest point over the bar. The work should be so intense as to “get out your skinâ€

[agapit]

[quote="volteur"][quote="agapit"]

Please, please, please there is ONE "ON" phase and no on/off/on/off. The modern model is focused on eliminating the off phases. It is not a rotation it is inversion or continuous pull/push over the bar. During the inversion the arms, lats, etc. constantly and without interruption rise (accelerate) the body (center of gravity) up and over the bar.

You should not think of it as "eventually slows and stops" you should think of it as a maximum energy point (loaded with potential energy) at the highest point over the bar. The work should be so intense as to “get out your skinâ€

[volteur]

[quote="agapit"]

You are scaring me. Please! There is no [b]“RIDING THE POLEâ€

[agapit]

[quote="volteur"][quote="agapit"]

You are scaring me. Please! There is no [b]“RIDING THE POLEâ€

[vault3rb0y]

I'm just curious at this point to what you mean. You talk about downward energy, are you sure you dont mean gravity? You seem to think the more we wait on the pole, the more gravity is going to bend the pole, or add energy. You are forgetting the fact that we have to fight that same "downward energy" at any point during the vault, and it remains 9.8m/s^2, and that the whole point is to get over that gravity, not try to use it to help us. Under that model we could vault higher on earth than we could on the moon.

[agapit]

Under that model we could vault higher on earth than we could on the moon.

I love this. Funny!

[volteur]

Hi

I do mean gravity. I'm sure i've said that on at least one occasion.

Agapit, the gravitational downspot and the down energy are both referring to gravity acting on the body. Sure the pole is already lifting the body upward yet there is that slowing of the upward motion before the re-acceleration to the clearance. What is this flatter section of the curve profile mean? What is causing it in your opinion?

The 'waiting allows more loading' comment is simply referring to holding the takeoff till it is complete. I mentioned earlier that the tempo or rhythm of the vault should not be messed with so waiting or holding merely refers to not cutting the tempo short. Fully completing each phase is what the waiting is all about. In a more ideal situation there would be no waiting, only timing.

cheers

Volteur

ps surely you don't disagree with everything i am saying?

[powerplant42]

It is my understanding that there should be no 'waiting' for the take-off to finish itself. Ideally, the foot leaves the ground and immediately begins the swing. However, this is not possible, because as humans we don't have this sort of control of our bodies, so the foot trails back as a result of a good take-off, but is ultimately slowing the vault down.

Is this close, or correct, or completely wrong or what!?

[PVstudent]

Monsieur / Madame / Mlle Volteur,

Your idiosycratic "patois" in relation to energy creation and storage in the pole support phase leaves not only Agapit at a loss for words!

I have attempted to follow your challenges to rational explanation as to
how the inversion swing can, and indeed has been shown by a number of studies emanating from respected biomechanics researchers in Cologne, add energy to the total system (vaulter + pole) during the pole support phase of the vaulting movement sequence post vaulter ground contact.

Your unique interpretations of gravity, energy, torques leave me utterly in the dark.

Perhaps there is an arcane system of knowledge, known only to a select few that allows those in "the know" to unravel the murky mystique of your understanding regarding the art and science of inversion after pole vault take-off. Your re-interpretations of well known Newtonian Principles of Mechanics do not give much credence to your claims of having some knowledge of sport science.

The 'waiting allows more loading' comment is simply referring to holding the takeoff till it is complete. I mentioned earlier that the tempo or rhythm of the vault should not be messed with so waiting or holding merely refers to not cutting the tempo short. Fully completing each phase is what the waiting is all about. In a more ideal situation there would be no waiting, only timing.

I find the above to be utterly incomprehensible.

I, like other readers of PV power, would like to be able to follow you to determine if what you are trying to express has any merit. This is particularly so for those of us who have assiduously followed the PV Power discussions on the issue that has been ongoing for years.

If you want to be taken seriously and treated with the "gravitas" you believe you possess please do the readers the courtesy of :

1. writing cogently using terms that have precise meaning in mechanics accurately and adhering to to their accepted meaning

2. helping us all towards enlightenment by being less arcane so that
that your writing is no longer like the "mountain mist" that dissipates into nothingness when exposed to the heat of day.

Critical examination of your writing leaves us with nothing of substance.

May the "Force" be with you!

I await to see, if when you return to the Newtonian world, you have anything of substance to add to the debate.

[volteur]

Hi

thanks for the challenge i do appreciate it. One thing i am not after is gravitas that is for others. In fact i'm interested in breaking false gravitas down in the pursuit of a better truth. I'm anonymous and will remain so because i don't want any personal credit i just want to delve into this thing called pole vault. The Petrov model is out there for anyone to interpret as they wish and i am attempting to do it in my own way, i think that is fair enough.

One thing i'm not really sure of are the precise definitions others are dealing with and so i don't really mean to be confusing, i have asked for some concise definitions. I merely don't exactly have the words for the view i look at. I will try harder.

I don't know if everyone shares your view. The way vaulterboy for one views pole vault seems similar to mine. His experience on the bungy showed that gravity is acting as we swing from takeoff extension into rockback. It occurs precisely as our leg passes the vertical under our hip. At that moment gravity begins to act on the body and if the timing is correct the swing occurs exactly at that moment. Instead of falling into a gravity hole as you think i am suggesting we instead use the gravity to invert so that the downward force of gravity is transferred vertically instead. In this view the pole somewhat catches the vaulter at the apex of his takeoff and then bends in order to flick him or her skyward.

I likel this view which is not mine at all, i think it is Petrov's amongst many others including to a large degree agapit. Correct me if i'm wrong please.

Oh one final thing student in disguise, Newton was replaced by an improved view some time last century. Einstein did that for us with his theory of relativity. Absolutism was replaced by relativity.

Cheers

Volteur

ps i like your line at the bottom of your post