swing timing

[AR01]

Not many, even Bubka himself admitted to only achieving a free take-off a hand full of times in his entire career.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I beleive Bubka admitted to only acheiving a pre-jump a hand full of times in his career and that a free takeoff was simple by his standards.

[LHSVaulterJJR]

ok if u feel that a free takeoff for a begginer should be something they should get used to your out of your mind. a free takeoff is the absolute hardest thing to do PROPERLY in vaulting. bubka even admitted himself that he only effectively used a free take off a small number of times in his entire career

[rainbowgirl28]

ok if u feel that a free takeoff for a begginer should be something they should get used to your out of your mind. a free takeoff is the absolute hardest thing to do PROPERLY in vaulting. bubka even admitted himself that he only effectively used a free take off a small number of times in his entire career

You should buy Beginner to Bubka and the DVD. It is possible to teach beginners how to have a free takeoff. Alan shows has plenty of video to back this up on the DVD.

[LHSVaulterJJR]

very true but speaking on allan launder himself coming from discussions with him at a usc pole vault camp .. allan explained that its extremely difficult to perform a free take off and not many people can do it .. it is possible to teach a free take off but takes many years. and also we are talking about a females form and form varies from male to female and i dont know of any proffesional female vaulters to ever master a free takeoff. so trying to teach it to a beggining female vaulter seems a little unreaslistic. Now teaching an OUT takeoff is different. but also my whole point to this post was to keep both arms straight and high. not to jam that left arm. but also my main point which was overlooked was that in the film of tracy her takeoff foot was about a foot to 2 feet under. this was due to her plant which included a completley bent left arm which came so far in it almost hit her chest. now teaching progressions is a major factor in coaching and that was her next stage. if she didnt get that left arm up and straight shed continue to takeoff under. that progression would actually get her somwhere unlike the comments underneath mine saying oh your doing great get on a bigger pole and run faster. Which is absolutley wrong because getting on a bigger pole with that problem will only magnify it and make it dangerous. and yes this coaching method and vaulting style is effective do to multiple proofs of proffessional vaulters and the fact that im currently coaching a vaulter whos top 10 in the nation for high school vaulters and only has 3 years experience.

[sooch90]

First of all Jason you spell ed vertical wrong. pretty sure. But both of you make excellent points. Jason I believe u r correct in tht a vaulter should be pushing both arms inorder to push the pole to vert and Sooch is correct by pointing out tht some elite vaulter tend to let the left arm
(in the case of a righty) come in; but they have it high and over there head in order to drive their chest forward. Also we have to agree tht Sergey Bubka was the acception and not the rule. How many people can take-off 4 to 5 inchs off the ground before their pole bends and still have enough speed and momentum to carry into their vault? Not many, even Bubka himself admitted to only achieving a free take-off a hand full of times in his entire career. But getting back to the discussion, I believe that a high plant, both right and left arm, sets up the best positon for take-off. Also Essex had a point in saying tht these pro's are griping between 16 and 17ft. When they take-off their left arm (righty) has to come in inorder to allow them to penetrate/swing. BUT!!! you can look at any one of Bubka's, Stevenson, Mack's, Gibilisco, or Brad Walker's jumps and see tht as soon as they have planted and have begun their swing (UP!!) they push their left arm completly out. This is what i believe LHSVaulterJJR (Jason) was trying to point out. But by realizing tht that is what the pro's do we have to understand tht beginners are not at tht level. The pole vault should be taught in stages/levels. You know what I mean? For example, you don't teach a beginner to free-takeoff simply because they don't have the skill to perform tht at tht time. Also we have to consider tht the vaulter we are talking about is a female. Form between male and female jumpers are mostly the same but there are differences also. One of the reasons being the pole length difference, this tremendiously effects the form of a vaulter. All these things have to be taken in consideration before we can correct/insult a fellow vaulter tht is trying to help another. Lastly, i want to point out tht LHSVaulterJJR is correct in tht there are diffrent styles in the pole vault. A great comparison would be Tim Mack and toby Stevenson, or even Bubka and stevenson. Toby is the type of jumper who drive both arms up on the take-off (LHSVaulterJJR) also Toby is griping extremely close to 17ft. Bubka, i believe, griped 16' 8 when he cleared 20+ the many times he had done it. So as we can see there are different styles and it all depends on which one workd for you.

_____________________________________________________________

Live, Love, Vault

blah, i just wrote a responsed but it got deleted. So I'm gonna go over it again really quickly. I don't mean to be rude with my terse response, but it's so much of a hassle to rewrite it.

1.) AR01 is right, Bubka said he only achieved the prejump a few times. However he achieved the free takeoff in all of his jumps.

2.) Bubka gripped 5.18m, or 17 feet in pole length

3.) Bubka emphasized that it wasn't his athletic abilities that made him such a high jumper, but his technique. Bubka is not an "exception" but a excellent example of great implementation of the Petrov model.

4.) you should always teach vaulters fundamnetal technical concepts from the beginning. Why teach them something, and then ask them to adjust it later on when you can just teach them correctly the first time around. The free takeoff and no pressure with the bottom arm can easily be taught to beginners.

5.) The bottom arm, after the takeoff, does not straighten because it is pushing the pole to bend (after the swing). From the info I've gathered (and a little common sense), this occurs because the pole, after takeoff, begins to bend, which then causes the bottom arm to straighten. So it's not the bottom arm that pushes the pole to bend at this stage of the vault, but the bending pole causing the bottom arm to straighten. This can be observed on all levels of the vault, elite or amateur.

6.) Sure agree there are different styles, but so far the main example LHSvaulterjjr has used to back his claim is Tim McMichael, who himself explained that he did not lock the bottom arm or put upward pressure with the bottom arm on the pole.

Just out of curiousity, where do you (LHSVaulterJJR) get your technical ideas from? Can we have some names? What model is it?

[LHSVaulterJJR]

very true but speaking on allan launder himself coming from discussions with him at a usc pole vault camp .. allan explained that its extremely difficult to perform a free take off and not many people can do it .. it is possible to teach a free take off but takes many years. and also we are talking about a females form and form varies from male to female and i dont know of any proffesional female vaulters to ever master a free takeoff. so trying to teach it to a beggining female vaulter seems a little unreaslistic. Now teaching an OUT takeoff is different. but also my whole point to this post was to keep both arms straight and high. not to jam that left arm. but also my main point which was overlooked was that in the film of tracy her takeoff foot was about a foot to 2 feet under. this was due to her plant which included a completley bent left arm which came so far in it almost hit her chest. now teaching progressions is a major factor in coaching and that was her next stage. if she didnt get that left arm up and straight shed continue to takeoff under. that progression would actually get her somwhere unlike the comments underneath mine saying oh your doing great get on a bigger pole and run faster. Which is absolutley wrong because getting on a bigger pole with that problem will only magnify it and make it dangerous. and yes this coaching method and vaulting style is effective do to multiple proofs of proffessional vaulters and the fact that im currently coaching a vaulter whos top 10 in the nation for high school vaulters and only has 3 years experience.

[sooch90]

very true but speaking on allan launder himself coming from discussions with him at a usc pole vault camp .. allan explained that its extremely difficult to perform a free take off and not many people can do it .. it is possible to teach a free take off but takes many years. and also we are talking about a females form and form varies from male to female and i dont know of any proffesional female vaulters to ever master a free takeoff. so trying to teach it to a beggining female vaulter seems a little unreaslistic. Now teaching an OUT takeoff is different. but also my whole point to this post was to keep both arms straight and high. not to jam that left arm. but also my main point which was overlooked was that in the film of tracy her takeoff foot was about a foot to 2 feet under. this was due to her plant which included a completley bent left arm which came so far in it almost hit her chest. now teaching progressions is a major factor in coaching and that was her next stage. if she didnt get that left arm up and straight shed continue to takeoff under. that progression would actually get her somwhere unlike the comments underneath mine saying oh your doing great get on a bigger pole and run faster. Which is absolutley wrong because getting on a bigger pole with that problem will only magnify it and make it dangerous. and yes this coaching method and vaulting style is effective do to multiple proofs of proffessional vaulters and the fact that im currently coaching a vaulter whos top 10 in the nation for high school vaulters and only has 3 years experience.

no no no, you're getting mixed up with the "free takeoff" and the "pre-jump"! Again, know your stuff.

And even if Tracy had put her hands up high, she still would have been under. Having a high plant and pushing the pole up with the bottom arm has no effect on the positioning of your takeoff step. You may not look as under, but you certainly are still under, which does not efficiently transfer all the energy you built up from the run.

Who is the vaulter you're coaching? Who are you? last time I checked, you're a 10 foot vaulter in high school, with 3 years of experience... Tracy, the vaulter you tried to give advice to, is a female vaulter with less than a year of training, using the petrov model, vaulted 12 feet.

Oh sure clearing height has little effect on your ability to coach, but all the great coaches who never cleared any spectacular heights (Mr. Launder is a great example) had YEARS of experience and STUDIED the vault. You lack both of these. Furthermore, if you want to bring high vaulters in to the equation, Petrov coached Bubka, who cleared the World Record height. Period.

Sorry if I'm coming off a little strongly, but I'd highly recommend taking a much humbler approach and reading Beginner to Bubka and even some of the discussions on this forum.

Also, I'm not saying I'm an experienced athlete or coach either, but I know of experienced athletes and coaches who'd disagree with some of the stuff you're saying.

[LHSVaulterJJR]

oo and ide love to use your technique as an example here sooch

first of all im not in this to personally attack anyone nor am i going to dispute my qualifications as a coach with a problematic new vaulter who clears a maximum of 13ft

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0518213109

now in your vault yes you have sum very good form up through your run even though it could be a good deal faster, but understandable you fractured your ankle a while back. also you have good form until your plant. now due to the person standing in the way of your takeoff mark i cant see if your performing your free takeoff or not. but i can say yes you have your right arm nice and high congratts and yes your trail leg and top arm are in a great C position for your swing. BUT even using your style of vaulting your left arm is way to low. Now weather or not you want to listen to me thats fine. then listen to olympic coach bill faulk when he states" the plant should be lifted with both hands. everyone lifts it pretty well with the right but the key is to lift it with the left" now coach faulk is saying that when you lift it with the left the pole bends higher and more efficiently .. and in your vault your chest comes forwards and everythings good accept wheres that left arm? its right ontop of your head. which you can see on your third jump how it pulls your hips out from underneath you and doesnt allow your chest to stay balanced over them. now this directly relates with my original statement about tracy's vault. you can keep that style of letting the arm bend in order to let your chest drive forward but it still needs to be lifted as high as possible otherwise it completly kills your penetration and everything beyond that in your vault.

again this is strictly to help prove my point im not personally picking you out but im trying to help you understand the importance of that left arm

[LHSVaulterJJR]

oo and no sorry ive got 2 years experience and i jump 14ft. now if u get mixed up with previous posts from athletes that ive previously coached thats not my fault. and the athlete im currently coachin is kirk dandridge. who now has unnoficially cleared over 16'6 which if im not mistaken would place him in the top 3 in the nation when he clears that in competition

[sooch90]

oo and ide love to use your technique as an example here sooch

first of all im not in this to personally attack anyone nor am i going to dispute my qualifications as a coach with a problematic new vaulter who clears a maximum of 13ft

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0518213109

now in your vault yes you have sum very good form up through your run even though it could be a good deal faster, but understandable you fractured your ankle a while back. also you have good form until your plant. now due to the person standing in the way of your takeoff mark i cant see if your performing your free takeoff or not. but i can say yes you have your right arm nice and high congratts and yes your trail leg and top arm are in a great C position for your swing. BUT even using your style of vaulting your left arm is way to low. Now weather or not you want to listen to me thats fine. then listen to olympic coach bill faulk when he states" the plant should be lifted with both hands. everyone lifts it pretty well with the right but the key is to lift it with the left" now coach faulk is saying that when you lift it with the left the pole bends higher and more efficiently .. and in your vault your chest comes forwards and everythings good accept wheres that left arm? its right ontop of your head. now this directly relates with my original statement about tracy's vault. you can keep that style of letting the arm bend in order to let your chest drive forward but it still needs to be lifted as high as possible otherwise it completly kills your penetration and everything beyond that in your vault.

again this is strictly to help prove my point im not personally picking you out but im trying to help you understand the importance of that left arm

Wait, just to clear something up, are you not the vaulter in the videos you've been posting? Yes you are. As far as I'm concerned and most people are concered, you are NOT a coach.

One, I never said once I was an experienced coach or a great athlete... or good representation of the petrov model. I was mostly restating things that other coaches and athletes have said before. But hey, if you want a good representation of the petrov model, look at Bubka.

And I believe my left arm was in my fact because I was a good deal under. Not because I didn't put pressure with the bottom arm. Although I do agree that you do need to keep the plant high. I'm not disagreeing with that, in fact no one is. It's the other points you bring up that I disagree with.

Not teaching beginner vaulters free takeoff, trying to block out to "get a feel for the bend". There are others, but I'm pretty sure you can just look back and read what I've said.


And I'm pretty sure calling me a "problematic new vaulter" is a personal insult...

Not that I'm going to disagree with that statement because sure, I am a problematic new vaulter who has plenty to learn.

[sooch90]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3afGP7go6ZA

is that you? Are not the one who's been posting on this thread? You've been speaking from first person saying you are the vaulter.. so one can only assume that you are.

EDIT: one more thing. According to Kirk Dandridge (who I do not know personally)...

" Also i do not have a coach, so I have taught myself how to jump by watching a lot of Bubka and reading. ALso attending two USC pole vault Camps."

http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14397


Well, why don't you as a coach, work that out with your apparent athlete...

[LHSVaulterJJR]

from my first year of vaulting yes that was me. and no i was jjust simply trying to help explain the imprtance of keeping that arm high ... now as far as im concered completley degrading my experience as a coach doesnt exactly fall into the catagory of helping the advancement of tracy's vault im sorry we have different vaulting styles but know the way im describing the plant would NOT block out the swing! and yes the petrov model is extremely effective. but the dispute between keeping a straight arm to initiate a high and effiecent bend is simply a matter of vaulting style and diplomacy