Rowing/Throwing?

[RPVA03]

I have searched the forum to look for an answer to this, but I could not find anything that answered my question fully. I have always been taught to, from the beginning of the take-off, row/throw to my shins with my right/top hand, in order to cover the pole. After reading more about the Petrov model, I am not sure if this would be beneficial. It seems to me that this would only shorten your axis of rotation from your top hand to your shoulders, during the beginning of the swing. This would result in a dissipation of energy. I am wondering if this idea is correct. Do you, or do you not want to row/throw your right hand? Does this result in a loss of energy, or does it add energy to the vault, like I have been taught?

[powerplant42]

It's an energy killer. It also can make the pole unbend prematurely.

[RPVA03]

Interesting, could you explain how it causes the pole to unbend prematurely? I have never thought of that.

[powerplant42]

Have you ever done Bubkas on a highbar? If you have, you'll know that pulling down makes the rest of the body tense up and do some wierd things, including (usually) breaking at the hips. It's this unnatural break of the hips that causes less energy input into the pole, as the body is no longer 'long'. The hips should break just after the chord of the pole is reached, all the time trying to push the pole upward. Pulling down isn't just inefficient, it is DANGEROUS! Think about it. Potentially, if you pull the pole, it may not rotate to vertical! Always keep your hands/arms PUSHING, never pulling. If you do some highbar work you'll see how much of a problem pulling can create.

[vaultman18]

Always keep your hands/arms PUSHING, never pulling

Agapit might disagree with this and I may too! How do you push and swing at the same time? If you are off the ground how do you push at all? Don't you need something to push against?
Try to hang on a high bar and push. Can you do it? I think you will find that it is physically impossible.

[RPVA03]

I see what you are saying, but I have always been told that the row/throw is not a pulling motion. In order to do it properly you need to keep your right arm straight, keep the hinge at your shoulders and throw to your shins, which will help you invert. I am not referring to a pulling motion when I say row.

[lonestar]

Here's another way to think of it: when you're hanging from a high bar, or rings, or parallel bar, or even a rope, where is your top hand in relation to your head (if watching from the side)? Directly over it, right? The same applies to your bottom hand on the high bar, rings, and parallel, and depending on your handspread, it varies on the rope, but essentially your arms/hands are in a straight line with your torso.

Can you do a Bubka, swing-up, rock-back, or whatever you want to call it, with your hands in front of you? Are you even strong enough to get your top hand in front of you and keep it there throughout that motion? The answer should be no, because gravity aligns your point of support (your hands) directly overtop of your center of gravity (abdomen). It is very difficult to force your point of support (hands) in front of your center of gravity (abdomen). It is even more difficult to rotate/pivot from the hands and shoulders if your center of gravity is behind your point of support. You invariably have to create other pivot points (your hips, and your knees - tucking) to adjust your center of gravity to get back underneath your point of support (hands), and the tuck raises your center of gravity, which takes pressure off the pole, reduces penetration, and makes it increasingly difficult to "cover the pole" and/or have your center of gravity (abdomen/hips) above your shoulders (pivot point) before the pole recoils, and thus shoots you out (flagging towards the bar) instead of up.

[powerplant42]

vaultman18: I realize the impossibility of actually pushing once off of the ground. It's more of something to think of to counteract pulling. I feel that keeping the hands high is more or less synonomous with 'pushing'.

However RPVA03, you say you don't pull, you rotate from your shoulders. In what stage of the vault have you been taught to do this in? The axis of rotation should be at the top hand until the chord of the pole is reached.

[vaultman18]

vaultman18: I realize the impossibility of actually pushing once off of the ground. It's more of something to think of to counteract pulling. I feel that keeping the hands high is more or less synonomous with 'pushing'.

Are we to assume both hands/arms do the same thing? Something else to try. Take a short run on a stiff pole and after take-off... Push with both hands/arms. What happens?

[lonestar]

vaultman18: I realize the impossibility of actually pushing once off of the ground. It's more of something to think of to counteract pulling. I feel that keeping the hands high is more or less synonomous with 'pushing'.

Are we to assume both hands/arms do the same thing? Something else to try. Take a short run on a stiff pole and after take-off... Push with both hands/arms. What happens?

Push with the top arm, pull with the bottom???

[vaultman18]

vaultman18: I realize the impossibility of actually pushing once off of the ground. It's more of something to think of to counteract pulling. I feel that keeping the hands high is more or less synonomous with 'pushing'.

Are we to assume both hands/arms do the same thing? Something else to try. Take a short run on a stiff pole and after take-off... Push with both hands/arms. What happens?

Push with the top arm, pull with the bottom???

I will go with that except once you leave the ground you can't push. The top hand/arm is merely hanging. I am pretty sure we have had this discussion before. I can't remember what thread though.

I just think saying "push" can lead to some really bad habits.

[powerplant42]

Yet using the word 'hang' possibly encourages whoever you might be coaching to slip into a passive phase mindset.