Tom Roetman

[vault3rb0y]

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but i urge you to note at the bottom of the vault manifesto it has a disclaimer for no one to try the technique who does not have proper supervision and training for several years. I do not imply that you do not have proper supervision, but you yourself said you are a nonexperienced pole vaulter. Also note that in the manifesto, the goal is to add the maximum amount of energy into the pole, not to invert as fast as possible. Although the two are usually one in the same, that energy needs to go through the top hand, and when you pull on your bottom hand, the energy does not. It's easy to mis-interpret what he was saying as well. It is my interpretation that the bottom arm "pulls" as in a lat-pull down. This is a controversial point that has been discussed already, and i dont want to debate you on it, but be careful. Roman coaches according to petrov and the "pull" can be interpretted in different ways. If you tell any vaulter to pull with their bottom arm they will never fully invert unless they know what you mean.

[Run2Niels]

Thank you for the warning and your interpretation of the "pulling".
I do not say I want to use the full and highly technical model of Botcharnikov, but I do want to understand what he has said and compare it with my own athletes.
I have not used (my interpretation) of the pull-push and only said to Tom I do not want him to push with the bottom arm.

I've overlooked the following sentence you wrote:

He definitely also has too much pressure on his bottom hand when he swings. Have him try to press his bottom hand to the left (or right) standard when he swings. Once he stops pulling with his bottom arm to swing, and keeps his hips from moving too early, he will crush some poles and find inversion a lot simpler.

I do not fully understand what you mean here. With "too much pressure on his bottom hand" you mean he pulls (normally I would think pressure means pushing)?
Why do he needs to press his bottom hand to the left standard (to the right seems a bit akward)?

Please explain further.

[KirkB]

... Have him try to press his bottom hand to the left (or right) standard when he swings. ...

3P0, I also didn't understand this. IMHO, there is no reason to "steer" the bottom hand to the left standard (for a right-hander). No one ever does that by intent ... it's just a natural consequence of how the pole bends. You should just swing naturally, and the pole will NATURALLY bend to the left as you pass the chord.

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

Sorry, i only said that because im a leftie vaulter, and we go toward the right standard with our right (bottom) hand .

His bottom hand is getting in the way of his swing, and he needs to get out of the way. A great way to do this is to have an athlete bring their bottom hand out and tell them "toward the left standard". It's just a visual way of saying "get it out of the way". Like kirkb said, he believes this comes natural. That might be true, but still when it does not (some athletes it does not come natural), it must be addressed.


And as for the pulling/pushing clarification... personally i believe there is a slight upward pressure with the bottom hand. Now many say it is completely passive and simply "maintains" but i have grown to think that it's role must do more than this or you end up with your bottom hand in your face after take off. However.... regardless i do believe we can agree that the bottom arm does not "pull" in the conventional definition of pulling toward the body?


Sorry for saying "too much pressure with his bottom hand". That does sound like pushing..... a better explaination would be that too much wieght is supported by his bottom hand when he swings. You want as much weight as possible on your top hand so that the energy from your swing is transferred through it.

[KirkB]

... You want as much weight as possible on your top hand so that the energy from your swing is transferred through it.

3P0, while I kinda understand what you're saying, I still think you're emphasizing the bottom arm too much in your explanations ... and probably in your vault ... that you're trying to explain to Niels.

Rather than focus on what the bottom hand is doing (right or wrong), I'd be more inclined to look at why Tom's top arm isn't doing MORE and his bottom arm isn't doing LESS. The obvious answer is that Tom is just learning proper Petrov technique, and just isn't there yet. Even then ... or ESPECIALLY then ... I think he needs to learn to swing more one-armed ... with the top arm.

If you solve that, then in due time all his bottom arm issues will dissipate ... without even focussing on them ... and without doing anything "unnatural" with his bottom arm.

I just finished watching the vids of the USATF, and in general, the most common problem I see with most of the US elite vaulters is that they "emphasize" the bottom arm too much. Just my opinion ... take it for what it's worth.

Kirk

[Run2Niels]

Now it's clear for me what you mean. tnx.

I will ask Tom if he feels the weight (hanging) on most his top arm, or if there might be too much weight on his bottom arm.

I do want to know how you can see there is to much weight on his bottom arm. I can't see it.

[KirkB]

... I will ask Tom if he feels the weight (hanging) on most his top arm, or if there might be too much weight on his bottom arm.

I do want to know how you can see there is to much weight on his bottom arm. I can't see it.

The amount of weight on your top arm vs. your bottom arm is all relative. There's no exact distribution that's ideal, other than to say the more you use your top arm to swing from (and the less you use your bottom arm), the better the vault will be.

I doubt that you can detect how much he's using each arm in his vaults ... you have to ask him. Even tho his July 5th jumps are slo-mo, I can't see how much he's hanging from each arm. But you're right in ASKING him how it feels. No matter what his reply, the solution is invariably to hang less on the bottom arm and more on the top arm.

This is not something you coach by just saying "swing more from the top arm". A better way to coach this is to simply get him stronger by doing lots of swinging on the highbar and rings ... with both arms fully extended. He will feel the muscles that are used in this way.

Strange as it may sound, you should swing with your weight balanced equally on the highbar and rings. But this gymnastic training will strengthen his top arm such that he can put more weight on it ... comfortably. Rope is different. On rope, you should try to simulate the vault by swinging as much as you can from the top arm. Even so, I would emphasize mostly highbar and rings ... supplemented by SOME work on the rope.

The reason why I suspect he's hanging too much on the bottom arm is simply that most rookies do ... and also becuz you can see his elbows flexed a bit. Done right, the top arm should be completely straight, and the bottom arm just used for balance. But you can't expect a rookie to learn this in his first season. It will take him a couple years to get it right.

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

I see his elbow collapsing on his bottom arm, and his body moving toward his left hand rather than a rotation around his top hand. Its very subtle, and i kinda developed a bit of a "feel" or "eye" for it, but i'm pretty sure. Also... the pole begins releasing early, and if you watch the vault enough you notice that when the energy goes through the top hand, that the pole generally stays bent until either they a.) pull with the bottom arm or b.) stop their rotation. Its all these subtle things that add up to my conclusion. It's just my opinion, take it or leave it.

[Run2Niels]

Haha! Once again the highbar comes into play.
Can't wait until our own 4different height highbar/donkeybars/multiple parallel bars/rope/rings facility is ready...just 3 feet away from the track

At the David Butler movie, I see all the youngsters stick out their left elbow to the side. Does this aid? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0052593028

[Run2Niels]

Master wrote: Seeing the end of the vault where he was turned (around the pole) indicates something was wrong in the plant and take off. Maybe the top hand at the plant was a little to the right or his take off was little right.

I have found the problem (penultimate and ultimate step) => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGzBjOmIyEc I think we've fixed it.
I'm going to take a second look at all my athletes from behind (only when they are polevaulting ) and see if others make the same mistake. Maybe an idea for other coaches?

For Tom, all he needed was to focus on his strides going forward and keep the right hand close to the body during the plant.

Now, from an 8-step runup he doesn't have the same balance problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=588FTmDzgEQ
The bungee is at 4.00meters and 100cm deep.

Ofcourse, he still needs to make a more vigorous downswing and move his feet more over his upper hand on the upswing.

[KirkB]

... Ofcourse, he still needs to make a more vigorous downswing and move his feet more over his upper hand on the upswing.

Kirk

[Run2Niels]

This wednesday Tom jumped 4meters for the first time => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL8uHp0TelU
After that he tried 4.20meters =>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZslw9aM ... re=related (first jump),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhnqbzdD ... re=related (second jump),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4NWlIdkE74 (third jump).

I think his second is his best jump! His finishing at the top has improved very much. He still doesn't have enough speed to really jump over his grip height, but he's getting closer.
He now has a 4.60/150 pole which he is bending even more than the 4.60/140 pole he used at 3.95 a few months ago => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2aofystlW8
What do you guys (and girls) think? Should I let hiw work with a bigger pole? 4.60/155 or 4.60/160? He is doing a serie of competitions until half september and after that we can work on major technical flaws like his take-off and his downswing.

Thanks for commenting!