Free Take-off???

[baggettpv]

I have been at this coaching thing too long. Sure, you should not be in support of the ground and pole at the same time. You should be actively moving in a manner up onto the pole in as high as a manner as possible. Top hand should be as extended as much as the arm can handle......but geez... can we not come up with a consistant developmental pattern of skill progression that is most efficient (with remediation and modification) to create this? Or even a training progeswion to enable the youth of America to develop into solid technique performers. I think the development of the programs is the most important question out there for the folks. Trying to change someone with somewhat success at a later time is worthless.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[baggettpv]

Please elaborate. Your answer is intriguing but vague. Lets just assume everyone thought about it and still don't know or are not sure. Thanks

In the vault:
If you need:
Speed then train like a sprinter (More to follow)
Consistancy of stride then hurdle
Strong as a thrower
Powerful like a triple jumper
Takeoff like a long jumper
Swing like a kicker
Followthru like a gymnast (freehip w/1/2 twist to handstand).

Come up and spend some time with us.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[baggettpv]

Please elaborate. Your answer is intriguing but vague. Lets just assume everyone thought about it and still don't know or are not sure. Thanks

In the vault:
If you need:
Speed then train like a sprinter (More to follow)
Consistancy of stride then hurdle
Strong as a thrower
Powerful like a triple jumper
Takeoff like a long jumper
Swing like a kicker
Followthru like a gymnast (freehip w/1/2 twist to handstand).

Come up and spend some time with us.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[baggettpv]

Please elaborate. Your answer is intriguing but vague. Lets just assume everyone thought about it and still don't know or are not sure. Thanks

In the vault:
If you need:
Speed then train like a sprinter (More to follow)
Consistancy of stride then hurdle
Strong as a thrower
Powerful like a triple jumper
Takeoff like a long jumper
Swing like a kicker
Followthru like a gymnast (freehip w/1/2 twist to handstand).

Come up and spend some time with us.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[baggettpv]

Please elaborate. Your answer is intriguing but vague. Lets just assume everyone thought about it and still don't know or are not sure. Thanks

In the vault:
If you need:
Speed then train like a sprinter (More to follow)
Consistancy of stride then hurdle
Strong as a thrower
Powerful like a triple jumper
Takeoff like a long jumper
Swing like a kicker
Followthru like a gymnast (freehip w/1/2 twist to handstand).

Come up and spend some time with us.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[master]

Posted for PVstudent by master:

I believe we are getting somewhere closer to understanding the concept of the "Free Takeoff" so that we can have clearer possibilities for unbiased discussions about the Petrovian concept. The question remains of the pole vaulter's intention so that a perfectly Free Takeoff can be achieved. Intention always preceedes action. Hence I repose the question with respect to the evidence revealed in the pictures 1-4 (including some reference points to help viewers more carefully analyze what is taking place since the camera motion and parallex error must be allowed for). Why do you consider the takeoff not to be a Free Take Off with a Pre Jump?

The pole I believe has made contact with the apron (sloping surface) of the box in picture 1. Also I perceive Bubka to be springing upwards as the Bubka-pole system is being translated horizontally forwards until the pole has impacted the back of the box, which has clearly occurred by picture frame 4. I do not perceive Bubka's foot to be on the ground in picture 3 (Why can the sole of his shoe be completely visible?). I also see a straight pole in picture 3.

I hope the indicators I have added in compliance with Volteur's request will serve to focus more exact analysis of this Bubka Take-Off. Agapit's suggestion that the Free Takeoff and Prejump (when properly executed) can appear to be the same thing is I believe reinforced in this example. Unfortunately we do not have the forces being measured under the pole tip that could put the pre-jump issue to rest.

Certainly a Free Takeoff. Is there a pre-jump before the pole tip impacts with the rear of the box?

[golfdane]

There's a slight bend in the pole at frame3, but it seems to be located around his lower hand, and could IMO be explained by the up-impulse (firm lower arm). The same kind of behavior you would see if you push on a free pole (resting on the ground) with the lower hand. It starts bending at the pressure point. His upper hand is not moving back from frame2 to frame3, compared to his shoulderjoint, supporting the notion, that no pressure is exerted from the back of the box in frame3.

Frame4 shows a nice uniform bend (pressure from top hand, firmly seated against back of the box).

The red lines are added by me. The red lines are between a marker on the pole and landmarks in the background, to spot how this marker moves.

[dj]

good morning

if you have a "MID" to far out and overstride... you can/will never have a free takeoff and finish the jump.

dj

[volteur]

dj how are you

i've been thinking about the MID thingy and have come to the conclusion that i like it. It is an extension of finding the correct position at takeoff.

As you clearly know one person can reach the correct takeoff point in a better position and with a better tempo than another so simply using the takeoff on it's own does not provide enough information.

I lived in perth for a few years and trained under Steve Rippon alongside Jimmy Miller and Paul Burgess. I got to see Budgy develop from soon after he stepped off the gymnastics mat and i listened to Jim snore nightly one meter from me in Finland for a month. Budgie was in the next room with Rippo who apparently didn't snore quite as much. Wrong combo for me and Budge.

The point of this is that whilst in Perth there was a lot of biomechanical analysis done. Also Nick Linthorne was training in the squad and his interest in biomechnics as many know is very high. The upshot of this is that the scientists needed to also measure take off velocity as well as velocity at ten meters out from takeoff. I'm assuming this information went along with take off position and was used to determine if the parameters were correct or not.

Possibly this MID system disables the need for such testing? If a MID is known to be relative for an individuals grip height and takeoff position then there is immediate feedback for the coach as to whether over or understriding has occurred. Of course this requires that something like the difference in grip heights between Chistiakov and Huffman are relative to the difference in their take off and MID positions. Can you check that information out?

Still having said all of that i believe a coach should have developed the 'eye' for coaching sufficiently to be able to visually know whether the athlet is over or under striding, whether the athlete can be quicker or whether the athlete should drop the intensity slightly because strain is becoming evident. These are only the broadest factors to be considered as well.

So i guess if a coach does not have this 'eye' also developed then reliance on a systematic approach appears to be the next safest bet. How would you describe your own coaching in this way dj?

[PVstudent]

There's a slight bend in the pole at frame3, but it seems to be located around his lower hand, and could IMO be explained by the up-impulse (firm lower arm). The same kind of behavior you would see if you push on a free pole (resting on the ground) with the lower hand. It starts bending at the pressure point. His upper hand is not moving back from frame2 to frame3, compared to his shoulderjoint, supporting the notion, that no pressure is exerted from the back of the box in frame3.

Golfdane,you are correct I accept your explanation. If there is some bend it is small relative to the proportional length of the pole between Bubka's Left hand and the pole tip. Note also the angle change of the pole to the horizontal and the linear motion increments along the box apron as indicated approximately by the arrow at the exposed point on the pole where it intersects with the vault pad images.

The question still remains, has Bubka's toe, in your view, broken contact with the ground in frame 3? Is there some horizontal travel of the pole tip between frame 3 to 4 where it is clearly is in contact with the back wall of the box and Bubka is off the ground?

Baggett I agree with your plea, I think we both accept the concept of the Free Take-Off! All I intend the post to do is to clarify what the difference is, if any, between Free Takeoff and and a Pre-Jump that is properly executed. The difference is much faster than the "blink of an eye". How, where and when the vaulter times and directs the net take off impulse (momentum magnitude and its direction) is important. I agree the vaulter needs all of the physical capacities you suggested. From a motor learning and control perspective we as coaches and vaulters need to be clear in regard to how a free takeoff can be achieved. The sequential pictures I hope will provide some evidence upon which to achieve this clarification without recourse to discussing abstractions. Here is a concrete example that I hope will be specifically discussed. Because we are confronted by the same evidence in the picture sequence our communication has a chance to be clear. When the meaning of the words are clear then we can have clarity of understanding. A concrete example is a good place to start.

DJ and Volteur could you please address the mid mark discussion to the mid mark thread. Let us focus on the issue at hand and not digress from the central topic of this thread. I assume you both agree the takeoff shown in picture sequence 1-4 of Bubka at least depict a Free Takeoff?

[volteur]

DJ and Volteur could you please address the mid mark discussion to the mid mark thread. Let us focus on the issue at hand and not digress from the central topic of this thread. I assume you both agree the takeoff shown in picture sequence 1-4 of Bubka at least depict a Free Takeoff?

Apologies i had a long response prepared that i was happy with and then i lost it. I couldn't bear to go through it all again straight away so i thought about dj's stuff instead. I was going to post that i thought he was trolling but went analytical instead.

I'll do it again after coaching tonight. One thing that came up i remember is surely there is a clearer version so we can see his toe in relation to the ground in 3. also are there any intermediary photos in the sequence?

cheers

[PVstudent]

Volteur there are no intermediary frames. The film was taken by cine camera originally and I do not know the exact frame rate. It had to be greater than 50 frames per second for the slow motion effect. I suspect around 64 frames per sec but I don't know this with any certainty.