Pole Vault Manifesto

[master]

So the only thing left really is whether there is a deliberate up-spring at take-off or whether the intention is to run through the takeoff with full extension instead?

I believe the following quote applies to pole vaulting also, with the possible and likely exception of the actual range of take off angles. I think it is worth noting that the range given does not start at 0 degrees (the angle I associate with a "run through the takeoff".) It seems so obvious that it shouldn't be necessary to say, but propelling oneself at an angle up at take off will contribute to one's performance, so long as you do not go at a higher angle than the optimum for you. In fact, for the graph shown in the paper for long jump, the losses given back by exceeding the optimum angle do not completely counteract the gains made until that angle is 45 degrees. It is also very important to note the optimum angle is individual.

The optimum take-off angle calculated above applies only to the athlete in question. Each athlete has a unique speed-angle relation that depends on their size, strength, and jumping technique. This means that each athlete has their own specific optimum take-off angle. The optimum take-off angle for a world-class long jumper may be anywhere from 15° to 27°.

- master

[gtc]

I have worked numerous camps with Alan and I can honestly say never ever once has he ever said anything of the sort that the takeoff should be a foot out and the vaulter a foot off the ground when the pole tip hits the back of the box! That is ludicrous.
Emphasis has always been that an idea takeoff would find the vaulters toes just leaving/off the ground pointing down as the tip hits the back of the box! Thats it!! So simple and when done correctly so effective. (But not always easy to do)

If this is true then this part of the equation can be negated. If there is a continuous connection, although separated, from take off support to pole support then that is what Petrov is saying and that many people have agreed with.

So the only thing left really is whether there is a deliberate up-spring at take-off or whether the intention is to run through the takeoff with full extension instead?

Oh and the 3 stride plant thing.

If this is TRUE? I know for a fact it is true and so do hundreds of kids that I have personally seen Alan work with and get immediate and long term results with. This is what has been explained to you numerous times in numerous ways but someone pulled something about a foot out and a foot up totally out of the air for some reason and gurgled things up.
Remember better to be p!$$ed off than p!$$ed on

[volteur]

Well we have to remove the foot out and foot off the ground thing for starters as i have never proposed he thought that.

I was just trying to find out what this pre-jump is. All i've had are avoidance tactics and running around in details. But we are getting somewhere.

Long jump takeoff clearly requires more elevation than pole vault. Common sense, biomechanics as well as simply watching the videos of say Beamon Lewis and Powell versus Bubka as the best vault example. I'm not sure how this can be argued short of posting a few video links and having everyone compare ... which won't happen. This point should be put to rest.

And master i said "run through the takeoff with full extension". The full extension is the important bit. If you imagine it or look at the Edwards video above this is pretty much what is happening. It is also what Bubka is doing. What they aren't doing is added elevation that is out of proportion with their forward momentum. Full extension through the takeoff is enough to gain the appropriate elevation.

Agapit's pole climbing exercise will be solving this mostly and has an auto feedback element already encapsulated in it. It will be tried very soon.

Anyway on a practical level athletes appear in two categories when it comes to this. One category are weak when it comes to gaining lift yet are good on running through whereas the other group operates in reverse - they have good 'ups' and are not so good through. So on an individual level each athlete needs to become more balanced between these factors as well as learn how to vault.

I think Simon Arkell was of the former type and he was your break-through vaulter i am told Alan. Simon could not get lift at takeoff but that was more in the way he ran than anything else. Simon gave up on gaining 'extra' lift after some time and instead had the bend in his poles made lower to account for his 'type'. Possibly this 'upspringing' idea is led all the way back from Simon's main weakness?

cheers

[dj]

powerplant42 wrote...

So all I'm really asking is wrapped up in the essence of this question: If I could, for example, barely roll over a 14' 140 pole with a perfect mid and take-off, should I still have enough energy to roll over a 14' 210? Or is this all in take-off efficiency and not really run energy?

the stiffer pole would take more energy (speed) to bend and get to vertical. if you are "barely rolling a 14'140 with a perfect mid and takeoff" there should be no need or desire to go to a stiffer pole.

BlueGoldPolevaulter167

DJ, what is all the math behind the MID chart? How long does it take to calculate also.

the math was derivied from a "theory" that to move one grip (approximately 4") you would need one foot (12") more of stride length over 6 steps..2" per step...(stride length X time = MPH/MPS.. where MPH?MPS is speed.. speed is potential force..

the chart progressed form it's first conception during the 70's to completion in 1982 when i had been out of the country for 3 years and some extra free time.. when peter mcginnis started the vault bio studies the speed for the last 10-5 meters matched my MPH on the chart.. and the jumps matched the grip and "MID". i changed my MPH and did the math to MPS.. if you subtract the takeoff distance from the "MID", convert it to Meters and devide the time you will get the number under the MPS on my chart.. unless of course i did the math wrong.. and those numbers i.e 1.35 sec for the last 6 steps (57 "MID") = average 9.5 MPS which is very close to what Bubka did to jump 20'2".....

of course like "baggy" said if you are not running correctly no "MID" will help... but if you are running and planting correctly you will have the "MID" to grip from the chart. it is so correct that many, many, all times we have predicted makes and misses at a 95% level.. wish i could take that to vegas this weekend..........

sorry for that......................

looks like you were asking about calculating something.. but you don't have to calculate.. i've done it for.. or rather science, physics and math has........

dj

[volteur]

[quote="dj"]

[quote]Take –off and Penetration

The efficiency of this phase depends on the vaulter’s skill in the drop/take-off junction, on whether he/she is able to begin the push before the pole is set against the box. The pole must be smoothly transferred to the plant position when the vertical take-off plane is crossed. The technically correct movement is characterized by the right acceleration of the pole at the moment the vaulter reaches the vertical take-off plane.

The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the box and then transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support.

The primary purposes of the support-pushing part of the vault are as follows:

1. To perform the drop and plant with minimal losses in horizontal speed at the angle of 20deg – 22 deg, e.g. at a tangent to the future swing on the pole;

2. Maximum transfer of kinetic energy to the pole by means of the impact made by the “pivotalâ€

[powerplant42]

It got posted in the wrong thread... It was posted in the late plant thread (where it was supposed to be) and here. WOOPS!

[rainbowgirl28]

I was just trying to find out what this pre-jump is. All i've had are avoidance tactics and running around in details. But we are getting somewhere.

I know you get frustrated when Alan answers you with page numbers instead of details, but he wrote a whole book of details about this stuff, which is readily available and certainly worth the purchase if you care so much. I think Steve Rippon is selling them in the U.K., or you can buy it from me or neovault.com if you want to pay a little more for shipping. Considering how weak the dollar is, even with the extra shipping costs, you don't end up paying much more than anyone else here.

[dj]

Good afternoon

My apologies for putting the “foot out and foot upâ€

[vaultman18]

This has gotten way out of hand. This used to be my favorite thread on PVP. Roman put all his thoughts out for all to read and now it has come to this 29 pages later.

VOLTEUR
I don't know what you beef is with Alan and I don't care. But why use a great thread like this one to start your pissing match? I have thread specifically about the Free Take-off why not there? As others have said before if you are serious, read BTB2. (PM me I have plenty of copies I am willing to sell)
At this point you are a ghost. You want to be taken seriously yet you won't post your name. I guess when this doesn't pan out for you, you can disappear and noone is the wiser. I say to you "put-up or shut-up"

DJ
I'm not sure why you felt the need to take your shots at Alan. I am a "hillbilly" from southern Appalachia yet Alan has never offended me or questioned my intelligence. I wonder why?
You have recanted on your statement on Alan's idea of the take-off being a"foot out" and thats great. But why the hell did you say that in the first place? Of the time I spent with him he never proposed that to me or our camp. What is your idea of a free take-off? As I recall you never responded to my "Free Take-off???" thread either. As I recall during the Bjorn Otto video thread you claim he had a free take-off. http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13010
Every one should watch this video and decide if it is indeed "free".

By the Way Alan will be at my place June27-28 all coaches are free. I am sure he will be more than happy to discuss all this then.

[dj]

good evening

You have recanted on your statement on Alan's idea of the take-off being a"foot out" and thats great. But why the hell did you say that in the first place? Of the time I spent with him he never proposed that to me or our camp. What is your idea of a free take-off? As I recall you never responded to my "Free Take-off???" thread either. As I recall during the Bjorn Otto video thread you claim he had a free take-off.

i stated why i "said that in the first place".........

where is the jump that CB posted? the jump at the top of that thread doesn't look like what i commented on.. he is under and flat footed...

as far as "free takeoff" i have always stood by what petrov has written on the takeoff.

vaultman18 you can insult someone else’s intelligents and support anyone you like but unless you know "why" and the "facts' you will not make progress as a coach.

dj

[BethelPV]

Heres a good video clip of Bubka performing a free takeoff!! Hope this works for you Volteur...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqsDfOSb ... re=related

[achtungpv]

Emphasis has always been that an idea takeoff would find the vaulters toes just leaving/off the ground pointing down as the tip hits the back of the box! Thats it!! So simple and when done correctly so effective. (But not always easy to do)

Petrov has described the free takeoff as the pole touching the back of the box as your big toe's toenail leaves the ground. Kinda creepy having to grow your toenails that long to achieve a free takeoff but you gotta do what you gotta do.