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I feel like we are ruining PP's section with our arguement, so I made this topic to discuss further.
This guy swings better than 99% of the vaulters I have ever seen. This is from 4 lefts on a little pole. I know for certain he doesn't think about swinging his trail leg.
Sorry PP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAH7BeFn2YQ

what guy?

good idea to move this arughment to a new thread. This guy has an awsome downswing, it makes him come off the top with some serious pop. He may not think of swinging the trail leg he is a good enough vaulter that he doesnt have to. He keeps his hips low longer then most vaulters loading the pole perfectly, he kicks his feet up while rising his hips at the perfect time he actually does not appear to start to make his hips rise until his legs are all the way to his top hand. The fact is that the trail leg always swings first, why would someone focus on swinging there hips when thats not what actually happens in the vault. I would think it would be better to focus on doing theese things in our drills at the times that they happen in the vault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuEgkmWT3Gc pause around 8,9,and 25 seconds. This is what happens when you swing your hips instead of your trail leg, an ugly looking vault. I tried to fix this problem the practice after that and had much better vaults, though I am definately still working on swinging all the way to the top.

--Kasey

KYLE ELLIS wrote: ... This guy swings better than 99% of the vaulters I have ever seen. ... I know for certain he doesn't think about swinging his trail leg.

Who is "this guy" and how do you know "he doesn't think about swinging his trail leg"?

It's NOT a free takeoff ... but it's a very nice swing ... only ONE frame in the flat-back state ... the same as Bubka's. Bubka's takeoff isn't quite shown, but it LOOKS to be closer to a free takeoff than "this guy".

To me, the best indicator of whether or not a vault is "efficient" is by counting the flat-back frames. It's a "continuous motion" vault (no leakage due to jerky stop/start actions ... such as a pause in the tuck) ... when there's no pause in the flat-back.

You cannot generate the momentum to pass thru this single flat-back frame by muscle-power alone. The only way it can be done is by having a good downswing. "This guy" is doubly talented in this regard, since he's doing it EVEN WITHOUT A FREE TAKEOFF!

I wonder what he could do WITH a free takeoff? I also wonder what his PR is. Good swing ... but rough around the edges.

Kirk

I think Kyle has a pretty good idea of what Banda is and is not working on, seeing as they trained together for several years.

KirkB wrote:

KYLE ELLIS wrote: ... This guy swings better than 99% of the vaulters I have ever seen. ... I know for certain he doesn't think about swinging his trail leg.

Who is "this guy" and how do you know "he doesn't think about swinging his trail leg"?

It's NOT a free takeoff ... but it's a very nice swing ... only ONE frame in the flat-back state ... the same as Bubka's. Bubka's takeoff isn't quite shown, but it LOOKS to be closer to a free takeoff than "this guy".

To me, the best indicator of whether or not a vault is "efficient" is by counting the flat-back frames. It's a "continuous motion" vault (no leakage due to jerky stop/start actions ... such as a pause in the tuck) ... when there's no pause in the flat-back.

You cannot generate the momentum to pass thru this single flat-back frame by muscle-power alone. The only way it can be done is by having a good downswing. "This guy" is doubly talented in this regard, since he's doing it EVEN WITHOUT A FREE TAKEOFF!

I wonder what he could do WITH a free takeoff? I also wonder what his PR is. Good swing ... but rough around the edges.

Kirk

Kirk the guy in the video is my best friend, who I taught to vault in high school. We went to Junior College for 2 years and then parted ways. Another reason I posted this video is to prove to you that you can swing super effeciently without having a good takeoff, and you can do it even with blocking the bottom arm (relating to you and KC's debate)... BUT OF COURSE I AGREE that you will swing better with a more effecient takeoff.

Things aren't always what they appear. If you extend your arms up after takeoff wouldn't it naturally make you "downswing" ?? Another mirage is that the vaulter waits until their top hand connects to the body before they extend up, but that is also worng; the vaulter has to start dropping the shoulders and extending up before... What you see is delays, there are delays every where in the vault. Just like if you told someone to swing primarily from the top arm as soon as they feel pressure , they might try to swing instantly but if you watch their jump in slow-mo they won't start swinging until their top arm is fully stretched back (very dependent on takeoff and planting technique)... I am not sure if I am even making sense anymore.

Lastly the guy in the video doesn't have the greatest takeoff in the world, and it used to be alot worse. I believe his Pr's from his shorter runs are 4.90 from 4lefts, 5.10 from 5lefts, and 5.20 from 6lefts....... Due to his run and takeoff this is where he tops out, but I honestly believe if he had a good place to train and a coach to build his run and takeoff that he would be consistent over 5.50

I was wondering what his full name was, but still didn't get it from either you or RG. I guess it's "Brandon Banda". Since these 2 are rock stars, I guess they only need one name each ... LOL.

I thought I'd heard his name before, and finally found it here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16335&p=118516. Turns out (from my search) that he's a buddy of Purcy, who I'd seen a vid of last year, and I analyzed his vault ... at fx's request.

Anyway, it's PURCY'S downswing that I was VERY impressed with last year ... not Banda's ... even tho they were both on the same vid. Not saying anything about the rest of Purcy's jump, but his swing ... especially his downswing ... was excellent. It's hard to tell how these 2 compare to each other ... whose PR is highest ... becuz Purcy was just getting over an injury in that vid.

So Kyle, if you coached Banda in HS, then did he ... and Purcy ... learn their mighty fine swinging technique from you?

And would you say that you have this same technique? I'm at a complete loss to understand you when you say that Banda swings the way he does without thinking about it, or without any specific swing-oriented drills. Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth ... please clarify.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: ... Another mirage is that the vaulter waits until their top hand connects to the body before they extend up, but that is also wrong ...

This makes no sense to me. I have no clue what you're trying to say.

Kirk

... Another mirage is that the vaulter waits until their top hand connects to the body before they extend up, but that is also wrong ...

I think kyle is referring to the fact the when the feet get to the top hand the vaulters hips are still low he appears to wait until this point to extend up. I believe kyle is right this is a mirage the vaulter tries to push his hips up after he finishes the down swing they are still low when his feet get to the top because of the delay. But he definitely did not try to swing them up right at take off or that would be one serious delay.

Kirk I think the reason you like Purcey's swing better is because he does infact swing is leg. I don't like it and Purseys PR from a walking step+4lefts is 14'8, banda's is 16'0.... Banda's PR from 3lefts (no walking steps) is like 15'2...

I did not teach Purcey anything, Brandon didn't meet Purcey until he moved to Colorado....I can't take credit for Banda's swing either, but we have talked about what he is trying to do alot. All I am saying is that I used to swing my trail leg, and I also used to tuck really bad and my hips stayed down just like PP's... I started listening to Coach Butler, Petrov, and my best friend who swings like the way I wanted to. I think you should focus on your arms when you swing, and that will fix all other problems.... Extended arms will create a down-swing, you can do a down swing and still be pulling down which will unbend the pole and stop its rotation.
If you think about swinging the leg there will be problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEHLQsO-JUg
This was me experimenting with all types of stuff, swinging my leg, rowing, etc... Fast forward to 2:50, this was my trying out Butler's concept of realigning (up pressure) it made me go right upside down without tucking for the first time in my life. It was semi passive, and I have done it better just not on camera.

Your first jump had the most height and the most penatration, but was also the most tucky. I would exspect this since you were just switching to swinging long a did not have the timing quite right for the long swing. The biggest difference I could see with the one at 2:50 is from what I could tell it was your furthest out take off. On all the jumps you have a good down swing and if you dont have to think about it it is because you have been doing that part of your vault correctly for so long it is automatic (I did notice in your vault you dont finish pulling and turning into the pole so you don't come off it as well as you could but since you were focusing on something specific I doubt this is typical in your other vaults). Personally if I don't think swing my trail leg long I will tuck right off the ground with no swing at all. This is from doing it wrong for so long and I imagine someone learning to vault would go through the same thing I am.

I don't like it and Purseys PR from a walking step+4lefts is 14'8, banda's is 16'0.... Banda's PR from 3lefts (no walking steps) is like 15'2...

It does not matter what you jump from your short run, my pr from 5 lefts is only 5 inches lower then it is from 8. Yet I know guys who jump 1 1/2 feet lower from 5 then they do from 8. In my exsperince it's usaually power jumpers that dont jump much higher from a long run then they do from a short run. (for example why derick miles pr is 19'2 even though it was only from 7 lefts.)

kcvault wrote:Your first jump had the most height and the most penatration, but was also the most tucky. I would exspect this since you were just switching to swinging long a did not have the timing quite right for the long swing. The biggest difference I could see with the one at 2:50 is from what I could tell it was your furthest out take off. On all the jumps you have a good down swing and if you dont have to think about it it is because you have been doing that part of your vault correctly for so long it is automatic (I did notice in your vault you dont finish pulling and turning into the pole so you don't come off it as well as you could but since you were focusing on something specific I doubt this is typical in your other vaults). Personally if I don't think swing my trail leg long I will tuck right off the ground with no swing at all. This is from doing it wrong for so long and I imagine someone learning to vault would go through the same thing I am.

I don't like it and Purseys PR from a walking step+4lefts is 14'8, banda's is 16'0.... Banda's PR from 3lefts (no walking steps) is like 15'2...

It does not matter what you jump from your short run, my pr from 5 lefts is only 5 inches lower then it is from 8. Yet I know guys who jump 1 1/2 feet lower from 5 then they do from 8. In my exsperince it's usaually power jumpers that dont jump much higher from a long run then they do from a short run. (for example why derick miles pr is 19'2 even though it was only from 7 lefts.)

Probably because the first jump the bungee was at 14ft, the very last jump it was at 15ft, i was moving the bugee up as I went.