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Been looking for a vid of something like this, for a VERY long time. I almost can't remember why. Something Kirk said about Roman's idea with the 6.40 model. Anyone wanna refresh my memory?? either way, i think it's pretty impressive and i wish this particular vaulter employed this more, in his vault

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oFIp4aE2d0

-6P

we used to setup a crossbar and have a lil comp. in practice. fun but it is a strength move and takes some practice. me teammate cleared 3'6" over the bar.

that seems like a really really fun competition to have. It also seems like it could really, really help your inversion/push.

I dont think you are going to find anything from a head hang. Thing is, doing it from a head hang wouldnt be as realistic to the vault as it would be with a very light swing. The light swing simulates the natural swing that roman talks about in his 6.40 model, and that little energy is necessary to build upon in an inversion. The 'natural swing' is the swing that your body would take in a vault if you made no attempt at inverting, but simply jumped off the ground. The backwards pressure on your hands creates a natural swing that requires no additional energy to happen in the vault. Of course, adding to that energy can be very powerful and allows a shoot-to-handstand.

We discussed Tamminga's incredible "shoot-to-a-handstand" in these two threads ...

http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18046&hilit=high+bar+exercise

Coindicidentally, I just commented on that thread today, before reading your new thread on this topic. Maybe this one should be locked, since the other one already covers the topic?

To refresh your memory, SixPack, Agapit had said that the athlete that breaks the WR with a 6.40 vault will need to have the gymnastic ability to do a shoot-to-a-handstand from a hang. Tamminga does this better than any other vaulter that I've seen ... altho I've seen several gymnasts do it without hardly trying ... for example, Yoshi Hayasaki, my fraternity buddy from UW that's been coaching at Illinois for the past 33 years.

Kirk

vault3rb0y wrote:... I dont think you are going to find anything from a head hang. Thing is, doing it from a head hang wouldnt be as realistic to the vault as it would be with a very light swing. ...

You mean "DEAD hang"!

But 3P0, you're missing the point of this topic. It was only mentioned by Agapit in his 640 Model thread as the measure of the athleticism of someone capable of 6.40 ... he didn't intend it to simulate the vault.

Kirk

ah, that's right! thanks for the refresher, kirk! and did you ever get my message? i remember you messaged me, a while back to see how i was doing, and i messaged you back, but i know the messaging on this site isn't too good, so it might not have ever gone through {shrugs} ah well. -6P

6P, the last PM I have from you is Apr 14, where you told me that you left your HS track team and have been training with a private club. Why? Please PM me on what's happening in your life. What are your plans for college?

Re this thread, Tamminga's the best I've ever seen. I've never SEEN Isaakson do a shoot-to-a-handstand, but I'm sure that he too could do one just as well as Tamminga. Not many other elite vaulters that can do it.

Kirk

KirkB wrote:

vault3rb0y wrote:... I dont think you are going to find anything from a head hang. Thing is, doing it from a head hang wouldnt be as realistic to the vault as it would be with a very light swing. ...

You mean "DEAD hang"!

But 3P0, you're missing the point of this topic. It was only mentioned by Agapit in his 640 Model thread as the measure of the athleticism of someone capable of 6.40 ... he didn't intend it to simulate the vault.

Kirk

You really dont think the shoot-to-handstand simulates the vault??? I see it being the BEST simulation of the top end of a vault there is. But from a dead hang, the biomechanics just doesnt make sense to me. Unless you dont count the extension before hallowing out your stomach as a light swing, i don't think its possible. You need some pendulation (if thats a word) before you whip-swing.

vault3rb0y wrote: ... You really dont think the shoot-to-handstand simulates the vault??? I see it being the BEST simulation of the top end of a vault there is. ...

3P0, it seems like we're talking in circles here. [sigh]

Of course the shoot-to-a-handstand is an EXCELLENT drill to simulate the extension part of the vault!!! I've said that on many, many other threads over the past year.

What DOESN'T matter is how you start the drill. You can either ...

1. Cast off first.
2. Do a kip and back uprise first.
3. Do a backswing and then a back uprise first.
4. Do it from a "very light swing" (your option).
5. Do it from a dead hang (Agapit's option).

These 5 options only get you to a point where you BEGIN the shoot-to-a-handstand. I've ranked them in order of difficulty.

If you're measuring ATHLETICISM (which Agapit was), then #5 is the one that requires the most athleticism.

If you're trying to simulate a real vault (which Agapit wasn't), then whichever one gets your hips the highest FIRST ... BEFORE the shoot-to-a-handstand begins ... would be the best. It's debatable which of #1-3 that would be ... but it's definitely not #4 or #5.

#4 (yours) is too difficult for mere mortals to do ... to the point that they would FAIL to actually do a proper shoot-to-a-handstand.

Ditto on #5 ... even if you COULD do it, you wouldn't have the speed that you have during a real vault, so it's not a good vault simulation drill ... it's just a measure of athleticism ... and good muscular conditioning.

In my training, I usually did the shoot-to-a-handstand from a kip/back-uprise (but sometimes from a cast-off). That was when I was trying to simulate an actual vault. But when I wanted to condition my muscles ... or measure how well I could do a shoot-to-a-handstand from a standing position under the bar ... I did #5. As I said, I could not SHOOT to a complete handstand this way. I could only get maybe three quarters the way up before I had to shift my hands and muscule up the rest of the way into a handstand.

I also mentioned in a different post that I used a variation of the shoot-to-a-handstand from a standing start as a sort of endurance contest ... to see how many times I could clear the bar and land back on my feet ... with no rest in-between reps ... without letting my chest scrape the bar. I forget exactly how many I could do, but it was around a dozen or so. If you don't have a good strength-to-weight ratio, you won't do well in this contest. I was a bit insane about this, and actually watched what I ate SO THAT I COULD DO MORE REPS! You'd think that my objective would be so that I'd vault higher ... and that WAS an end goal ... but along the way to that end goal, being able to do more reps without scraping my chest on the highbar was a self-measurement to see how my strength-to-weight ratio was improving. I know ... I was a little insane on this one ... but that's what I did.

I hope we're on the same page now.

Kirk

I think that i need to do a LOT more gymnastics this season, which we are planning on. The muscle-up-to-handstand you talked about being able to do seems extremely difficult, and i would have considered it a shoot-to-handstand if you hadnt said anything. right now im a perfect example of knowledge without doing, because i have very limited gymnastic high bar background. Till i start doing some of these things it'll be hard for me to be productive. Heck, i dont even fully understand the biomechanics of a kip at this point. It seems like keeping your hands by your hips after the "kip" action would be extremely difficult, but once i start doing it myself a little better, it'll probably start making more sense.

vault3rb0y wrote: I think that i need to do a LOT more gymnastics this season, which we are planning on. ... i have very limited gymnastic high bar background. ... i dont even fully understand the biomechanics of a kip at this point. ...

3P0, if you search my other threads re "kip" (search for "kip highbar"), you'll discover that a kip in itself is another example of a gymnastic trick that doesn't simulate a vault ... but it's a basic skill that you need to learn before you can learn some of the more advanced things that DO simulate the vault ... such as the shoot-to-a-handstand. It's not that you MUST learn a kip, but any gymnast worth his salt knows how to do a kip, so if you haven't learned that yet, you're just not on the bandwagon. In a way, it's a measure of your athleticism as a gymnast ... that separates the men from the boys.

I'm actually quite impressed that you vaulted so high in HS without having any gymnastic skill.

It's not too late for you to get on the bandwagon ...

Kirk